Originally Posted by loml

flip - Raising children period, is not easy. Sorry if you find the statements depressing. Where is the true bi-bi flip? There isn't one. Looks good in the books, but find a real one flip. That is the reality.

Originally Posted by loml

People on this board profess to support ASL and oral. What tools are you suggesting the oral program use to create a successful oral program? Quit avoiding the question. If you can't be part of the solution, then what part are you?[/color]

Originally Posted by loml

flip - I did not say baby sign was SEE, I said:
originally posted by loml

Originally Posted by jillio

There is nothing easy about raising any child. But there is nothing inherently more difficult about raising a deaf child, either, if you are willing to do what needs to be done from the child's deaf perspective. I find your "oh, the poor parents of a deaf child" perspective extremely discrimionatory toward the deaf child and just another indication that your focus is in the parent and not the child.

Agreed. Baby sign isn't about SEE. But loml is so English based that she sees everything from that perspective. True, it is a mental trap.

Originally Posted by flip

You make me dizzy. First you said raising deaf children not is easy, then you talk about children in general. Please make up your mind. Where do you think Shel is working? In a fantasy school?

Originally Posted by flip

I suggest the oral schools to use bi-bi to create a successful oral program, as findings where oral programs are compared with bi-bi programs shows better results in oral skills for students from bi-bi programs.

Originally Posted by flip

Yes you describe SEE. If you think you have described something else than SEE, you still are making up stuff if you claim baby sign programs don't use ASL both in sign and grammars.

Originally Posted by flip

If you happen to visit a true bi-bi program, I am sure you will change your mind based on your questions here.

Originally Posted by flip

Sure raising a child isn't easy. You are right, it's the "ouch.. deaf child.." perspective that is so unecessary and energy draining for both children and parents, I was thinking about.

Originally Posted by Tousi

To attempt to try to see why Loml is rabid about CS and not embracing ASL/English in education and I emphasize educational strategy ONLY. There are pockets, here and there, of deaf extremists in this country and in Canada, people who I have absolutely no time for. My suspicion is that Loml lives within one such pocket of people and if that's the case, well, then......

Originally Posted by flip

Sure raising a child isn't easy. You are right, it's the "ouch.. deaf child.." perspective that is so unecessary and energy draining for both children and parents, I was thinking about.

Originally Posted by loml

originally posted by loml





flip -Raising children is difficult flip. Sorry that you are dizzy.



flip - How do you make an oral program successful? What are your ideas?



flip - My definition of SEE is this: ASL signs in English word order, using affixes. Some people like to say a "sign for every word". The baby sign programs, do not teach you a sign for every word, do not use affixes, nor do they sign it in ASL syntax. They voice "Want some (insert sign) (parents says the word) milk.? In my experience, they are not taught by fluent Deaf adults. Search YouTube flip, take a look at how many hearing people are claiming they are using ASL. Take a look at the book "American Sign Language: A Teacher's Resource Text on Grammer and Culture."

orginally posted by jillio

.



flip- Change my mind about what exactly?

Originally Posted by loml

flip - They are deaf flip.

Originally Posted by loml

originally posted by loml
flip - How do you make an oral program successful? What are your ideas?

Originally Posted by loml

Originally Posted by flip

If you happen to visit a true bi-bi program, I am sure you will change your mind based on your questions here.

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

Where are the true bi-bi programs? What are the names of the schools and which states are they in?

Originally Posted by flip

You want to visit a bi-bi school?

Where do you live, and I am sure we can give you some names. Perhaps better to start a new thread on this?

Originally Posted by Tousi

There aren't nearly enough true bi bi programs in the USA.

Originally Posted by jillio

Absolutlely. We can come up with names of bi-bi programs. Shel's program and the Indiana School for the Deaf are the first two that come to mind off the top of my head. There are also some charter programs that I have listings for.

Originally Posted by Tousi

There aren't nearly enough true bi bi programs in the USA.

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

That's the point and what I am asking for is the states and names of the schools that you guys would consider true bi-bi programs.

Originally Posted by jillio

I've given you two. Do you want the complete listing of charter schools as well? There may not be many to date, but it is the direction we are moving. Any change like this takes time and effort. You can see the opposition to such a change right here onthis board. It is much easier to hang onto outdated and ineffective methodology than it is to admit what iis being done isn't working and institute widespread change.

Originally Posted by shel90

Hello..I am in AZ so wont be on AD much this week but I wanted to reply to this...

I wonder if it is easier to hang onto outdated methods cuz of money or cuz of the belief of trying to make deaf children as much like hearing children? Or both?

Originally Posted by Boult

rd, here you go

Deaf Bilingual-Bicultural Charter Schools

let you know that Laurent Clerc Elementary School is listed and was located in Tucson but the address is the former location and moved to Flowing Wells area. LCES folded couple years after moving. They had students that are both deaf and hearing (hearing attended there cuz of deaf sibling or deaf parent)

Originally Posted by flip

A bit risky and requires knowledge, but another possibility is to visit a TC schools, and check if they got teachers f l u e n t in ASL, who understand the secrets of bi-bi. My impression with the TC schools in the states is what happens in the classroom depends on the teacher. If the teacher got many students with deaf parents, and perhaps also are deaf, the changes is big the teacher is okayed by people who really can evaluate teachers, and the students are above the average. That's what I call a possibly good place to put your kids.

Originally Posted by shel90

No, they do those kinds of modifications.

I am saying that they have always felt reluctant using both signing and speech to teach. Here is why according to them...

The hearing teachers that have worked at my place of employment for 20 plus years were there when my school changed from a TC program to a BiBi program. They said that they can see the difference in their lessons when using just one language instead of both at the same time. They said they never felt comfortable Sim-comming the lessons cuz too often the kids were misunderstanding the concepts and they would have to repeat or act them out which was very time-consuming for them. Also, they said that both the teeachers and the students would get burnt out from cognitive overloading.

They said since ASL is a conceptual language itself, the concepts are taught much more effectively and the kids are learning faster therefore less time wasted on explaining one concept over and over again.

For that, I will take their word for it cuz that is about 20 teachers agreeing to the same thing.

Originally Posted by dreamchaser

forgive my ignorance again, but what is simcomming?