Deaf Education - One size does not fit all - Page 18

loml · 02-03-2008, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Nope, didn't miss it. In fact, I have answered it numerous times, in numerous posts. Did you by chance, miss the answers?

Actually no you have not answered that exact question jillio.

Quote:

jillio - Ideally the child would have aquire/learn both, determining which would be first would be somewhat difficult. English first, ASL, the child needs to be part of their family. How each individual family accomplishes this, up to them. They have to make informed decisions.

Even if the deaf child learns the familial language first, why do you have such issue with this?

jillio · 02-03-2008, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

jillio - Choices jillio, choices.

And that answer would be applicable how? Your need to impose your choices on the deaf members of this board?

jillio · 02-03-2008, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

jillio - Of course I do.

Then it is perhaps the result of your having backed yourself into the proverbial corner.

jillio · 02-03-2008, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

Actually no you have answered that exact question jillio.

Then why request it again? I am not as fond of redundancy as you appear to be.

loml · 02-03-2008, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Then it is perhaps the result of your having backed yourself into the proverbial corner.

jillio - No quite wrong there. Taking a survey here then are you?

loml

Quote:

Actually no you have not answered that exact question jillio.

jillio

Quote:

Then why request it again? I am not as fond of redundancy as you appear to be.

jillio- Simply because you didn't answer it.

jillio · 02-03-2008, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

jillio - No quite wrong there. Taking a survey here then are you?

loml

jillio

jillio- Simply because you didn't answer it.

Again with your lack of understanding of research methodology. A survey is given to various members of a target population. I addressed my question specifically to you.

Then why, pray tell, did you state "Actually no you have answered that exact question jillio." Are you getting confused again, loml?

And quite simply, you are refusing to answer a very simple question. For some reason, you find that question threatening. Why would that be, loml?

loml · 02-03-2008, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Again with your lack of understanding of research methodology. A survey is given to various members of a target population. I addressed my question specifically to you.

Then why, pray tell, did you state "Actually no you have answered that exact question jillio." Are you getting confused again, loml?

And quite simply, you are refusing to answer a very simple question. For some reason, you find that question threatening. Why would that be, loml?

This has nothing to do with research methodology jillio. Threatening would not be my choice of word for your questions jillio.

My statement was this: Actually no you have not answered that exact question jillio.

Perhaps you did not have the opportunity to view the correction.

jillio · 02-03-2008, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

This has nothing to do with research methodology jillio. Threatening would not be my choice of word for your questions jillio.
asking me if I was taking a survery most certainly has to do with research methodology. The fact that you fail to see that is indication of your lack of understanding. And, if you are not threatened by the question, why is it that you still refuse to answer?

My statement was this: Actually no you have not answered that exact question jillio.

And my reply is that I have. In numerous posts in numerous threads, as I stated previously.
Perhaps you did not have the opportunity to view the correction.

The correction, quite obviously, was made after I pointed it out, as I copied and pasted from your post. Nice try. How about a little personal responsibility here, loml?

Yep, just as I suspected. You edited at 10:20...well after I posted your inconguencies. Nice attempt to backpedal, but it isn't working.

loml · 02-03-2008, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

The correction, quite obviously, was made after I pointed it out, as I copied and pasted from your post. Nice try. How about a little personal responsibility here, loml?

Yep, just as I suspected. You edited at 10:20...well after I posted your inconguencies. Nice attempt to backpedal, but it isn't working.

jillio - I corrected my typo. You going to answer the question?

jillio · 02-03-2008, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

jillio - I corrected my typo. You going to answer the question?

As I have already stated, loml, I have answered that question both in this thread and numerous others. I am not responsible for your obtuseness, or your difficulty in comprehension.

Are you going to answer the question I posed to you? You are still refusing to answer if, you are a supporter of ASL as you so claim, have you emailed responses to the A. G. Bell Assoc. or to Pepsico in support of their efforts? It is a question that requires only a simple yes or no answer. Very easy. Is it yes, or is it no? Further refusal to answer will indeed provide the answer that has been suspected all along.

Kaitin · 02-04-2008, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

Kaitin - Perhpas you have forgotten this, so I shall post it again. I have not said the family shouldn't learn ASL. In fact I believe that the family should learn ASL, preferably from a Deaf adult who is fluent in ASL so that the child/family learn the language of ASL.

I don't forget your posts. Usually you talk about how hard ASL is for hearing parents and nothing about how hard communication is for deaf kid. Or deaf kid should learn ASL after learning English - many years later, so probably not so fluent and with years lost without ASL. And often you write about just the deaf kid learning ASL, not the whole family to support the deaf kid in the language of deaf culture and understand the kid's struggle to communicate.

....................

From September 8, 2007: This is a scenario that Cued Speech could be a significant support. If the child aqauired language through the CS system, they could learn ASL from a native user (deaf teacher) and continue learing English via CS for reading and writing.

..........

December 10, 2006, about ASL:

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

The "professionals" that the parents meet as they try to do what is best for their child, in their circumstance, are overwhelmed with biased information.

IMHO, to suggest the parents learn a "foreign language", which in fact can/does take years to become fluent in, and historically has not proven itself to develop literacy, is actually oppressing deaf children.

.......

November 22, 2007L

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

Accurate modeling of ASL is not the real world of deaf children with hearing parents.

Hearing people are NOT using SIGN LANGUAGE, they are using signs borrowed from ASL in "plunking" it into their English spoken sentence. The jury is out regarding the "boosting of IQ".

............

December 6, 2007: shel90- What you say is true, but it is not the reality of a deaf child in a hearing family. CS is easy to learn and given incentive a family can be proficient in 6 months. To insist a family learn ASL at the time of diagnosis when an option like Cued Speech is available is simply unrealistic for most families. I can invision that if families were provided CS , the deaf child in result will be given the communication/inclusion in the language of their family via CS. The relationships with their deaf children may, or more likly will be quite different.

..............

December 6, 2007:

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

Kaitin - In a hearing family with a deaf child, yes I would say 100 % English via CS. If the family can provide access to a native ASL user then the child should be provided both.

..........

December 15, 2007:

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

fredfam- When a hearing parent learns to cue they already know the language, they simply need to learn the system of Cued Speech. This is not the case as you are aware with ASL. Learning a new language is a difficult process for an older person even if it is "just for fun".

.............

December 24, 2006:

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

Do not misunderstand me here, I value ASL for the wonderful communication tool that it is, beyond doubt. I do however, struggle with hearing people expending their energy with advertising ASL. The promotion of ASL, imho, is simply missing the needs of the young deaf child. If you have been enlightened in this regard, then indeed, I am pleased.

....

December 29. 2005:

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

The number of users of CE/CS, imo, is not relevent to this discussion, for me. If a child has the opportunity to learn the language of his/her family via CS, the simple fact that they are able to communicate in whole sentences, phonetically, (the same way that a hearing child does), learning their families language, within their own family unit, imho, is a win win situation. Once a child has mastered their own family language, both in reading and writing, after all as parents we do wish our children to accomplish this, with as little pain as possible, then learning a second language is that much easier.

Deaf children must pay an exhausting amount of attention. no matter what communication method they use. Deaf children should learn ASL, from native signers, but imho, after they have mastered the language of their family. To insist that hearing parents learn ASL upon diagnosis of their deaf child, imo, is simply unfair to everyone, including the deaf child.

Language/communication should start at home, with the people who are most influential in a childs life; his/her parents.

..........

May 25, 2006 (about hearing parents learning ASL and teaching deaf kids): Why would you want deaf children to struggle with learning ASL from hearing people who often are not good models of ASL?

SM, yet again I will say: The best time for children, deaf and hearing to learn a language prior to 6 years of age. Deaf children of hearing parents are often not given access to the complete language, ASL or English. This happens for many reasons, this is simply the way that it is.

You do not want deaf children to know their families language, why?

ASL is a great communication tool. ASL, in a hearing family with a deaf child.. deaf child can read and write English? No

Do you get it?

jillio · 02-04-2008, 05:49 AM

My, oh, my! Caught right in the middle of numerous contradictions yet again!

Good work, Katilin.

flip · 02-04-2008, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

flip - Again, I do not present Cued Speech as oralism, understand please that you need not voice when you cue. ASL is unhealthy, unhealthy, honestly you take this to an odd level.

Do you agree that ASL is a foreign language? Do you agree that the learning of ASL can/is a difficult venture for some/most hearing families?

No, no. ASL is not difficult. Get a proper ASL instructor and open your mind and have fun. Part of you hostility toward ASL includes telling parents that ASL is too hard to learn, as we see here by your rhetoric question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

I promote a system that gives visual, kinesthetic and some auditory(although of course not always the case), for hearing parents to use as an early intervention tool with their deaf child. For you somehow this is a bad thing?

According to correlative findings in modern linqustics, this "somehow" is a bad thing. Just let's hope that hearing people don't get weird ideas from NCSA and tries to raise deaf children with morse code.

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

flip - I am fimiliar with the programs locally that call themselves "bi/bi". As I have said before, nice on paper, but not necessarily the "real deal". Frankly flip, the child needs to have access to language way before they get to school. The language of their family from their family and ASL from a Deaf role model fluent in ASL, preferably.

If you know everything about bi-bi, then why did you ask? Again this lie that ASL is too hard to learn for parents so you can promote NCSA cued speech.

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

flip - Certainly reads that way for me.

I habour no hostility toward ASL, a language cannot in and of itself be bad.

You habour hostility towards the use of ASL.

loml · 02-04-2008, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

No, no. ASL is not difficult. Get a proper ASL instructor and open your mind and have fun. Part of you hostility toward ASL includes telling parents that ASL is too hard to learn, as we see here by your rhetoric question.

flip - If ASL learning was/is that easy as you claim for heairng parents to learn, then there would be no issue. I have learned ASL, from the Deaf community flip, have you learned Cued Speech? Familes need to be informed of all their choices flip.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

According to correlative findings in modern linqustics, this "somehow" is a bad thing. Just let's hope that hearing people don't get weird ideas from NCSA and tries to raise deaf children with morse code.

I am not sure what you are trying to say here.

Your statements reflects your misinformation of what Cued Speech is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

If you know everything about bi-bi, then why did you ask? Again this lie that ASL is too hard to learn for parents so you can promote NCSA cued speech.

flip - Please stop with the embellishments.

I have never said I know everything about bi-bi.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

You habour hostility towards the use of ASL.

flip - Another inaccurate statement.

flip · 02-04-2008, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

flip - If ASL learning was/is that easy as you claim for heairng parents to learn, then there would be no issue. I have learned ASL, from the Deaf community flip, have you learned Cued Speech? Familes need to be informed of all their choices flip.
I am not sure what you are trying to say here.

Your statements reflects your misinformation of what Cued Speech is.
flip - Please stop with the embellishments.

I have never said I know everything about bi-bi.
flip - Another inaccurate statement.

Your lack of responses with content and the hollow questions speak volumes.

Audists among speech therapists, doctors, audiologists and oral ed teachers have been known to make claims that ASL is too hard to learn for parents for decades. You are in good company with them when you put up this old oral myth here. Cued speech as early interventation is an easy way out for parents in exactly the same manner as AVT, and both are risky. The biggest difference as I can see, is it's more work for parents with cued speech.

It's a large number of preschool teachers and parents out there who learn ASL to get an early as possible language intervention with hearing babies. You should ask yourself why they go for ASL even if they do not know it and their babies are hearing. Check this link for some sane reading on learning ASL to use with babies.

Baby Sign Language – How do I as a parent learn?

Cut'ed and past'ed:

"Remember that it will take several weeks of signing before your infant will produce the first gesture so you have plenty of time to practice."

"It is pretty easy for parents to learn Baby Sign Language and begin teaching it almost immediately to your infant. Access the many support materials available and start right away! The sooner your infant begins learning the signs and gestures, the sooner you will have that first early two-way conversation with your baby."

loml · 02-04-2008, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

Your lack of responses with content and the hollow questions speak volumes.

flip - You, me and the rest of the world are all intilted to our opinions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

Audists among speech therapists, doctors, audiologists and oral ed teachers have been known to make claims that ASL is too hard to learn for parents for decades. You are in good company with them when you put up this old oral myth here. Cued speech as early interventation is an easy way out for parents in exactly the same manner as AVT, and both are risky. The biggest difference as I can see, is it's more work for parents with cued speech.

flip - There is nothing easy about having a deaf child.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flip

It's a large number of preschool teachers and parents out there who learn ASL to get an early as possible language intervention with hearing babies. You should ask yourself why they go for ASL even if they do not know it and their babies are hearing. Check this link for some sane reading on learning ASL to use with babies.

Baby Sign Language – How do I as a parent learn?

Cut'ed and past'ed:

"Remember that it will take several weeks of signing before your infant will produce the first gesture so you have plenty of time to practice."

"It is pretty easy for parents to learn Baby Sign Language and begin teaching it almost immediately to your infant. Access the many support materials available and start right away! The sooner your infant begins learning the signs and gestures, the sooner you will have that first early two-way conversation with your baby."

flip - Good for them flip! I am familiar with the baby sign programs. Hearing people taking ASL signs, putting them into the English spoken sentence.

Supplementing spoken language with a visual is a good thing, something Cued Speech also does, cueing in the language of their family! If baby sign gives parents some piece of mind and support prior to verbalization fine. It does not provide children with an accurate fluent model of ASL the language. Cute at the time though.

loml · 02-04-2008, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by Kaitin

Quote:

Isn't the family learning ASL a great gift TO a deaf child FROM a hearing family? If they start when the kid is a baby and keep learning, the parents could have good ASL skills when the kid is a few years old and then the kid and parents maybe are fluent. What a great gift! Since the hearing world doesn't give deaf kids a lot of gifts about language and communication and the deaf kid struggles with communication the whole life, parents learning ASL seems great - they will know the language of Deaf culture and learning the struggle to communicate.

Originally Posted by loml

Quote:

Kaitin - Perhpas you have forgotten this, so I shall post it again. I have not said the family shouldn't learn ASL. In fact I believe that the family should learn ASL, preferably from a Deaf adult who is fluent in ASL so that the child/family learn the language of ASL.

Originally posted by Kaitin

Quote:

I don't forget your posts. Usually you talk about how hard ASL is for hearing parents and nothing about how hard communication is for deaf kid.

Kaitin - Not sure why you see this as having to come from me.

I share information about Cued Speech. If you want to talk about these other topics, please do.

Originally posted by Kaitin

Quote:

Or deaf kid should learn ASL after learning English - many years later, so probably not so fluent and with years lost without ASL. And often you write about just the deaf kid learning ASL, not the whole family to support the deaf kid in the language of deaf culture and understand the kid's struggle to communicate.

Kaitin-

Originally posted by loml

Quote:

Perhpas you have forgotten this, so I shall post it again. I have not said the family shouldn't learn ASL. In fact I believe that the family should learn ASL, preferably from a Deaf adult who is fluent in ASL so that the child/family learn the language of ASL

loml · 02-04-2008, 07:27 PM

originally posted by loml

Quote:

If I recall, you have stated that some of these children with language delays can be coined "oral failures". I believe you also support oral skills for deaf children, what do you beleive needs to happen for these children, so that they are not "oral failures"?

shel90- Would be so kind as to share your ideas on this please?

Silentwolfdog · 02-04-2008, 10:18 PM

Yes, I do agree. That learning the sign language is the greatest gift that the parent can ever give to their deaf child. For what they did is opening up the world in child's eye.

02-04-2008, 10:18 PM	#529 (permalink)
Silentwolfdog a toku fangirl Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Earth Posts: 702	Yes, I do agree. That learning the sign language is the greatest gift that the parent can ever give to their deaf child. For what they did is opening up the world in child's eye. __________________ If you are using red or blue font, there's a good chance that I am not reading your posts due to it being blended into background! I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night. ~Sarah William Check my art at http://silentwolfdog.deviantart.com

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02-04-2008, 05:49 AM	#522 (permalink)
jillio Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,163	My, oh, my! Caught right in the middle of numerous contradictions yet again! Good work, Katilin.

02-05-2008, 08:00 AM	#530 (permalink)
flip Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 479