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Old 01-20-2008, 10:12 PM   #271 (permalink)
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True Jillio that technolgical has been change over the years.

But you got to understand that its not the methodologies that shows no improvement for the deaf world wide. You and She'l kept saying Bi Bi works better for deaf people which is not true, it might work for some and it also might not work for others. Every hearing loss is different and every child learns differently. There is no single approah for all just like rockdrummer stated and he's right.

For hearing aids, it may works for some and it also may won't work for others it is the same goes for cochlear implants. It does not mean the device itself fails deaf children or deaf adults world wide.

It all depends on the individual. (The person's hearing loss, the person's progress)
Its important to give those deaf children a fair chance to try each programs to see how the child will progress even if it is Oral, TC, Bi Bi or Cued Speech.

If you expected them all to be in a bi bi program then every deaf child should get a cochlear implant because its better than hearing aids, You see what I'm trying to say here?
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Old 01-20-2008, 10:55 PM   #272 (permalink)
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It's difficult to get some real results out of many types of educational programs for the deaf and hard of hearing. One of the reasons is the lack of language development during the first five years of a child's life. It is absolutely crucial that language development is made a top priority, if not then you are likely to be in for a very rough ride. Educators and the educational programs will not work if the parents don't work with their children in acquiring a language or more.

It's a continuing trend and not much is being done about it. It's the same old story all of the times.
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Old 01-21-2008, 08:33 AM   #273 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Silentwolfdog View Post
Ah. I would just think it's better to use one language instead of two at the same time.

Even I can't look at interpreter while reading the textbook. Two languages fighting for dominant position in my brain just hurts me.
LOL, I know. Can u imagine while teaching, I use two language at the same time. I wouldnt be able to teach effectively cuz my mind would be just confused trying to make sense of fitting two languages together.
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Old 01-21-2008, 08:36 AM   #274 (permalink)
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The reason why I asked Shel is because 90% of deaf children are born to hearing parents, and these parents know very little about deafness and also would like their deaf children to learn spoken language and if you were get hearing parents to be interesting in these bi bi programs, how would you do that?..AND if you noticed why there are many hearing parents favor early implantation is because of an increased improvement in their child's speech classes..
Some parents are well-informed and make the choice while others dont get that info and then their kids end up in our program later on. Usually the kids who come into our program later on have language delays. My school has a family ed program who goes to home visists and educate the parents about all the options including our program. Up to the parents to make that decision. We have children with CIs coming in our program as babies and some of those chidlren are able to switch between both lanaguages which is really neat to see.
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Old 01-21-2008, 08:38 AM   #275 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cheri View Post
True Jillio that technolgical has been change over the years.

But you got to understand that its not the methodologies that shows no improvement for the deaf world wide. You and She'l kept saying Bi Bi works better for deaf people which is not true, it might work for some and it also might not work for others. Every hearing loss is different and every child learns differently. There is no single approah for all just like rockdrummer stated and he's right.

For hearing aids, it may works for some and it also may won't work for others it is the same goes for cochlear implants. It does not mean the device itself fails deaf children or deaf adults world wide.

It all depends on the individual. (The person's hearing loss, the person's progress)
Its important to give those deaf children a fair chance to try each programs to see how the child will progress even if it is Oral, TC, Bi Bi or Cued Speech.

If you expected them all to be in a bi bi program then every deaf child should get a cochlear implant because its better than hearing aids, You see what I'm trying to say here?
Never seen a child get pulled from our program because it wasnt working for them cuz ASL is 100% accessible to all chidlren even hearing ones.

In AZ, there is a charter school called Sequois that is a BiBi program using ASL and English. Both deaf and hearing children are accepted there and it is having a lot of success. In my 5 years of teaching, I have never seen a child pulled out of our program to another program. It is usually the other way around.

It would be like saying spoken English doesnt work for some hearing kids in the public schools.
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Old 01-21-2008, 08:39 AM   #276 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Banjo View Post
It's difficult to get some real results out of many types of educational programs for the deaf and hard of hearing. One of the reasons is the lack of language development during the first five years of a child's life. It is absolutely crucial that language development is made a top priority, if not then you are likely to be in for a very rough ride. Educators and the educational programs will not work if the parents don't work with their children in acquiring a language or more.

It's a continuing trend and not much is being done about it. It's the same old story all of the times.
Yep, that is what I see too often.
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Old 01-21-2008, 08:40 AM   #277 (permalink)
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I don't see how ASL won't work for some deaf people. It's like saying English isn't work for some Americans.

Only reasons I can think of if those aren't working is if those people already have another type of problems as such literacy isn't their strongest subject or having dyslexia or whatever.

I can see deaf people having more problems with oral method rather than with ASL since ASL depends on one of their strongest sense (sight).

But that's just me.
Right...it is the same thing with CODAs...never heard of a case where ASL didnt work for a CODA either.
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Old 01-21-2008, 08:51 AM   #278 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cheri View Post
True Jillio that technolgical has been change over the years.

But you got to understand that its not the methodologies that shows no improvement for the deaf world wide. You and She'l kept saying Bi Bi works better for deaf people which is not true, it might work for some and it also might not work for others. Every hearing loss is different and every child learns differently. There is no single approah for all just like rockdrummer stated and he's right.

For hearing aids, it may works for some and it also may won't work for others it is the same goes for cochlear implants. It does not mean the device itself fails deaf children or deaf adults world wide.

It all depends on the individual. (The person's hearing loss, the person's progress)
Its important to give those deaf children a fair chance to try each programs to see how the child will progress even if it is Oral, TC, Bi Bi or Cued Speech.

If you expected them all to be in a bi bi program then every deaf child should get a cochlear implant because its better than hearing aids, You see what I'm trying to say here?
It sounds like a good idea but the problem is you run risk of language delays if those programs dont work for some. That is why we get so many kids referred to our program at an older age cuz their parents tried all these programs only to have their kids fall so far behind. For me, I would rather have the child to have 100% full access to language and communication at all times in the educational setting so that way they have a better chance of developing higher literacy skills. I guess that's just me...putting the child's education/language/literacy skills first and foremost.

At the rate we are going, probably all deaf kids will end up implanted in the future.
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Old 01-21-2008, 09:20 AM   #279 (permalink)
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No, Cheri, I'm not deaf, nor have I ever claimed to know what it is to experience life as a deaf person. On the contrary, I have always said that I have gone out of my way to consult with deaf people because they are the only ones who truly know what it is to be deaf, and they are the experts on their own needs. I constantly advocate for services to be provided from a deaf perspective rather than from a hearing perspective. I am the one that reccommends involving deaf individuals in the decisions made and the policies set that affect them.

I have, however, studied deaf education and psychology of deafness in depth. I have studied cognitive psychology as it applies to learning styles of deaf children. I have studied developmental psychology as it applies to language acquisition of deaf children. I have been directly involved in deaf education and advocacy for deaf students for 16 years. I have studied the psychosocial impact of deafness, and how changes in the environment such as school placement and methodology benefit deaf students. I have done research on these topics. My dissertation is based on these concepts. I talk with deaf students on a daily basis, and I listen to what they tell me, and use it as a foundation for understanding what I know about these other subjects as they apply to deafness. I have not only seen TC programs in operation, I have spoken in depth to students who were educated in TC programs. I know the philosophy behind TC, and I know the methodology used in a TC environment. I know the rationale used in the development of TC programs. I have also witnessed Bi-Bi education, and know the methodology used and the philosophy behind it. I understand the rationale on which Bi-Bi education is developed. I have spent considerable time and effort comparing and contrasting the two methodologies, and applying them as they fit the needs of specific learning preferences and cognitive processes. My opinions regarding Bi-Bi and TC are based on extensive klnowledge and the experience of those who have been educated in the methods, and those who have taught using the methods. Whether I am hearing or deaf is not the issue, because I use the deaf population as my focus group in both assessing the effectiveness, and evaluating the differences.

Shel is not agreeing with me just because she thinks I am right. She, too, has extensive experience and education to back up her opinions. She and I have seen the same things, and have reached the same conclusions, and we have done so separately. She has been involved with different programs than I have, she has worked with different deaf students that I have, she attended a different college than I did, so she had different coursework and professors. But we are seeing the same things in her experience and in my experience. That alone tells me that it isn't just what I have experienced, or just what she has experienced, but that there is a common thread that holds true across different groups of students.

No one has said that TC is bad. In fact, for several years, TC was the best choice available. But, just as with anything, there are strengths and there are weaknesses in the methodology and the philosophy that have been well documented across disciplines. Bi-Bi has the possibility to overcome the weaknesses. It isn't about making a judgement of one program being bad and one being good. It is about improving the educational environment for deaf children, and making changes that provide greater opportunity.
All very impressive but at the end of the day you still can't ignore the success stories out of various programs. You also cant ignore the fact that there are many experts in the area of deaf eduation and amongst them there is no consensus. You also can't ignore the inconsistancies within the various programs.

The fact that many so called Bi-Bi programs are not really Bi-Bi. I have heard from deaf adults on this board that have said the Bi-Bi program they went through was a joke. And I am reasonably sure those inconsistancies apply within TC and other programs as well.

So assuming all of the programs are in fact what they say they are, there is still division amongst those that cliam to be experts. How does one reconcile that. For me it suggests that one size doesn't fit all. It tells me there is no silver bullet. My own research and personal experience indicate success and failures out of all camps.

To me, that clearly indicates differences in learning styles and learning needs. It also suggests that some programs within a given model are better than others. I'm quite sure there are great Bi-Bi programs out there and that those programs are in fact Bi-Bi as defined. I'm also quite sure there are many that fall woefully short at the expense the childs education. And that applies to all programs. Not just Bi-Bi. Much of that also has to do with politics within the educational system and some has to do with the individual teachers themselves. Assuming each program is well defined and equally implemented, I'm sure you will still see varying results out of each program.

Each parent has to make many choices regarding their deaf child and they make those choices based on many variables. While it would be nice to limit those variables, the reality is when it comes to education, at this particular point in time, it can't be done.
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Old 01-21-2008, 09:24 AM   #280 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cheri View Post
True Jillio that technolgical has been change over the years.

But you got to understand that its not the methodologies that shows no improvement for the deaf world wide. You and She'l kept saying Bi Bi works better for deaf people which is not true, it might work for some and it also might not work for others. Every hearing loss is different and every child learns differently. There is no single approah for all just like rockdrummer stated and he's right.

For hearing aids, it may works for some and it also may won't work for others it is the same goes for cochlear implants. It does not mean the device itself fails deaf children or deaf adults world wide.

It all depends on the individual. (The person's hearing loss, the person's progress)
Its important to give those deaf children a fair chance to try each programs to see how the child will progress even if it is Oral, TC, Bi Bi or Cued Speech.

If you expected them all to be in a bi bi program then every deaf child should get a cochlear implant because its better than hearing aids, You see what I'm trying to say here?
Outstanding points especially about how much hearing loss a person has. I'm quite sure that also influences the individuals learning style and needs. While I am no expert I would imagine that the teaching techniques would be a bit different towards a profoundly deaf child than they would towards a child that is HOH.
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Old 01-21-2008, 09:32 AM   #281 (permalink)
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It sounds like a good idea but the problem is you run risk of language delays if those programs dont work for some. That is why we get so many kids referred to our program at an older age cuz their parents tried all these programs only to have their kids fall so far behind. For me, I would rather have the child to have 100% full access to language and communication at all times in the educational setting so that way they have a better chance of developing higher literacy skills. I guess that's just me...putting the child's education/language/literacy skills first and foremost.

At the rate we are going, probably all deaf kids will end up implanted in the future.
Right Shel you do run a risk. You run that risk no matter which program you choose including Bi-Bi. There are pro's and cons in each of the programs. There are also many variables that affect the programs themselves of which parents have little or no control of. Then there are the variables that parents do have control of. And then there is the individual child and the variables they have control of. It's all of those things combined that will determine the outcome. While there are things that a parent can do to mitigate some if the inherient problems, at the end of the day, it's still a crap shoot which to me is a sad state of affairs.
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Old 01-21-2008, 10:51 AM   #282 (permalink)
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Right Shel you do run a risk. You run that risk no matter which program you choose including Bi-Bi. There are pro's and cons in each of the programs. There are also many variables that affect the programs themselves of which parents have little or no control of. Then there are the variables that parents do have control of. And then there is the individual child and the variables they have control of. It's all of those things combined that will determine the outcome. While there are things that a parent can do to mitigate some if the inherient problems, at the end of the day, it's still a crap shoot which to me is a sad state of affairs.
Up to you if u want to think that way. I dont think of it that way.

I see my students having equal and full access to language and able to participate in discussions, socialize with each other like hearing kids do with each other, have deaf role models, and exposure to both worlds. I dont see anything sad about it.

Due to my 10 plus years of experiences, I see that the BiBi approach as the most promising due to the fact that all children will have equal access to language in the classrooms. I am speaking of in the education setting. At the home enviornment, I have no control over that and I dont know what goes on at the home for each child at all times. I do have some background knowledge of their home lives but that is only based on what was given to me.

Maybe I see the BiBi approach as the most promising cuz of my priorities in the education of deaf children.

If for others if their priority is speech, then oral-only programs and TC programs would be better for them.

Yes, there are pros and cons to all programs but in my opinion, the BiBi approach has more pros than cons.

If u and others dont believe in BiBi programs, I am not gonna stop u. I am just sharing why I believe and it is the most promising, the most fair for ALL students despite the degree of their hearing loss which is why I chose it.

I was raised in the mainstreamed and oral-only approach. While I did get a good education out of it, I felt it was too restrictive for me and I definitely did not have equal access to the curriculm, discussions, and lectures in the classroom as my hearing peers did. I really think that was not fair for me to be put in that position of constantly working just to keep up in the classroom when I could be really enjoying learning. The was one of the biggest factor to why I chose the BiBi approach cuz no child is being put in that position. They always know what is being said in the classroom equally.
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Old 01-21-2008, 10:58 AM   #283 (permalink)
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Right Shel you do run a risk. You run that risk no matter which program you choose including Bi-Bi. There are pro's and cons in each of the programs. There are also many variables that affect the programs themselves of which parents have little or no control of. Then there are the variables that parents do have control of. And then there is the individual child and the variables they have control of. It's all of those things combined that will determine the outcome. While there are things that a parent can do to mitigate some if the inherient problems, at the end of the day, it's still a crap shoot which to me is a sad state of affairs.
From my experience, those kids who start out in the BiBi programs have a stronger language foundation than those kids who got referred to our program at a later age. A stronger language foundation equals to higher literacy development for the child unless the child themselves have a learning disability.

I dont recall seeing any children becoming language deprived from the BiBi programs. That is based on my experience.

All of my students this year have shown progress with English literacy skills..some develop faster and some develop slower depending on their learning styles. So, I am seeing that as a success and I am confident it will continue as long as each of us teachers meet their learning styles/meeds.
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Old 01-21-2008, 12:11 PM   #284 (permalink)
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Agreed rockdrummer that every program has it's pros and cons.
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Old 01-21-2008, 01:43 PM   #285 (permalink)
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Excellent post there Jillioie I like your point toward where I bold it, that was an great listing of examples of how things has improved dramatically in the past years, it the same way as what I see in these cochlear implants, not so long ago, I remember being so against cochlear implants in the past because I feel parents were trying to change us to be like them but I was so wrong and started learning so much more about them. Anyways, I'd be interested to see how many deaf children benefits from these bi bi programs just as much as TC did for me and the others inculde your son.

Before I submit my reply, I wanted to add what I love best about it is your passionate focus on deaf children's education and not often do I see hearing parents fighting to keep ASL alive. It good to have people like you on this forum Jillio, only to wish for more people like you, well done!
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Old 01-21-2008, 01:51 PM   #286 (permalink)
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True Jillio that technolgical has been change over the years.

But you got to understand that its not the methodologies that shows no improvement for the deaf world wide. You and She'l kept saying Bi Bi works better for deaf people which is not true, it might work for some and it also might not work for others. Every hearing loss is different and every child learns differently. There is no single approah for all just like rockdrummer stated and he's right.

For hearing aids, it may works for some and it also may won't work for others it is the same goes for cochlear implants. It does not mean the device itself fails deaf children or deaf adults world wide.

It all depends on the individual. (The person's hearing loss, the person's progress)


Its important to give those deaf children a fair chance to try each programs to see how the child will progress even if it is Oral, TC, Bi Bi or Cued Speech.

If you expected them all to be in a bi bi program then every deaf child should get a cochlear implant because its better than hearing aids, You see what I'm trying to say here?
I see what you are saying, but Bi-Bi accomplishes that. It permits access to academic information in a format that allows for easy access for the majority of deaf children. We can't base policy on a few outliers. We have to base policy on what has been proven to be beneficial for the majority. We have researh in place that indicates that a Bi-Bi approach to language and to education is the most beneficial for the majority. Then we can make modifications to that curriculum for the outliers. What we do now is set policy based on the outliers, and try to make modifications for the majority. It just isn't working.
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Old 01-21-2008, 01:52 PM   #287 (permalink)
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It's difficult to get some real results out of many types of educational programs for the deaf and hard of hearing. One of the reasons is the lack of language development during the first five years of a child's life. It is absolutely crucial that language development is made a top priority, if not then you are likely to be in for a very rough ride. Educators and the educational programs will not work if the parents don't work with their children in acquiring a language or more.

It's a continuing trend and not much is being done about it. It's the same old story all of the times.
**nodding agreement** That is why adopting a Bi-Bi approach in early intervention has the possibility of producing some amazing increases in academic acheivement.
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Old 01-21-2008, 01:54 PM   #288 (permalink)
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BiBi programs not working for some children?

Hey Jillo...I was thinking of the title of this thread on how one size does not fit all.

We know that the oral-only, TC, and CS doesnt fit all. These approaches work for some while they dont work for others. Many people keep saying that the parents have to be diligent about watching signs for a particular programs success or failure for the child. Ok, that is a great idea but unfortunately it is not a reality for all parents because many parents dont understand the educational system itself let alone deafness.

What about the BiBi approach? Has there ever been cases where a child became language deprived and delayed from the BiBi approach? AS far as my experiences with the BiBi approach, that didnt happen. What about in your experience?

If it shouldnt work for a child, why would that be since language is already fully accessible to the child, speech programs are available, direct communication with peers and teachers, and a curriculm modified to meet their visual needs? Since some of you are saying that the BiBi approach is not for everyone...can u care to elaborate on how is that?

I am just pondering of what would cause the BiBi approach be a failure for children. I am just having a hard time seeing it because all the resources are available.
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Old 01-21-2008, 01:58 PM   #289 (permalink)
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All very impressive but at the end of the day you still can't ignore the success stories out of various programs. You also cant ignore the fact that there are many experts in the area of deaf eduation and amongst them there is no consensus. You also can't ignore the inconsistancies within the various programs.

The fact that many so called Bi-Bi programs are not really Bi-Bi. I have heard from deaf adults on this board that have said the Bi-Bi program they went through was a joke. And I am reasonably sure those inconsistancies apply within TC and other programs as well.

So assuming all of the programs are in fact what they say they are, there is still division amongst those that cliam to be experts. How does one reconcile that. For me it suggests that one size doesn't fit all. It tells me there is no silver bullet. My own research and personal experience indicate success and failures out of all camps.

To me, that clearly indicates differences in learning styles and learning needs. It also suggests that some programs within a given model are better than others. I'm quite sure there are great Bi-Bi programs out there and that those programs are in fact Bi-Bi as defined. I'm also quite sure there are many that fall woefully short at the expense the childs education. And that applies to all programs. Not just Bi-Bi. Much of that also has to do with politics within the educational system and some has to do with the individual teachers themselves. Assuming each program is well defined and equally implemented, I'm sure you will still see varying results out of each program.

Each parent has to make many choices regarding their deaf child and they make those choices based on many variables. While it would be nice to limit those variables, the reality is when it comes to education, at this particular point in time, it can't be done.
As I just explained in my reply to Cheri...we cannot base policy based on the outliers.


Variations in a program can be said for any program. The reason that there are so many variables is because we are not setting policy based ont he majority and making accommodations for the outliers. We are setting policy based on the outliers, and then trying to make accommodations for the majority. We need to have a methodology in place that addresses all the needs of the majority, and then make variations and accommodations for the outlierrs based on a solid foundation of methodology and theory. We are not doing that, and that is why there are so many variations and problems. As well, we have educational policy being set by administrators who have no education or experience with deaf education, and as a result, don't understand the methodologies they claim to be implementing.
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Old 01-21-2008, 01:59 PM   #290 (permalink)
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True Jillio that technolgical has been change over the years.

But you got to understand that its not the methodologies that shows no improvement for the deaf world wide. You and She'l kept saying Bi Bi works better for deaf people which is not true, it might work for some and it also might not work for others. Every hearing loss is different and every child learns differently. There is no single approah for all just like rockdrummer stated and he's right.

For hearing aids, it may works for some and it also may won't work for others it is the same goes for cochlear implants. It does not mean the device itself fails deaf children or deaf adults world wide.

It all depends on the individual. (The person's hearing loss, the person's progress)
Its important to give those deaf children a fair chance to try each programs to see how the child will progress even if it is Oral, TC, Bi Bi or Cued Speech.

If you expected them all to be in a bi bi program then every deaf child should get a cochlear implant because its better than hearing aids, You see what I'm trying to say here?
I thought u were against the idea of oral-only programs since deaf children in those programs are not exposed to sign language?
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Old 01-21-2008, 02:01 PM   #291 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by shel90 View Post
It sounds like a good idea but the problem is you run risk of language delays if those programs dont work for some. That is why we get so many kids referred to our program at an older age cuz their parents tried all these programs only to have their kids fall so far behind. For me, I would rather have the child to have 100% full access to language and communication at all times in the educational setting so that way they have a better chance of developing higher literacy skills. I guess that's just me...putting the child's education/language/literacy skills first and foremost.

At the rate we are going, probably all deaf kids will end up implanted in the future.
That is exactly what I mean by setting policy based on outliers. If we start all children out in a program that gives them everything, and then remove services they don't need, we haven't taken the risks we are taking now. The way it works now is that we offer the bare minimum, and add services as they appear to be needed. It makes much more sense to offer more, and move to less if indicated.
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