Survey of Bi-Bi programs - Empirical Article - Page 22

rick48 · 10-08-2008, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

thanks. I would never put a profoundly deaf child in an oral only environment. Not to slight your parents. I just don't believe that would be fair.

RD,

Never say never and that is exactly what my wife and I did for our daughter because it was the best setting for her and she thrived and thoroughly enjoyed it.

Remember, one size does not fit all.

Rick

**Bottesini** · 10-08-2008, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick48

Very true. Now it makes sense that when I asked her to state her experience to back up a negative generalization she made about hearing parents of cochlear kids she could not do so.

Just when you thought you heard it all...

Just store it in your mind for a happy memory. My posts usually get removed because I am not gentle.

10-08-2008, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

I hate to break it to you, RD, and no disrespect intended, but if he is in a self contained classroom, he is receiving group instruction based on one particular philosophy and using one particular methodology. That is the whole purpose of a self contained classroom. Group instruction.

That is not the case.

10-08-2008, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick48

RD,

Never say never and that is exactly what my wife and I did for our daughter because it was the best setting for her and she thrived and thoroughly enjoyed it.

Remember, one size does not fit all.

Rick

Agree...Your child had a CI though ... right?

Oceanbreeze · 10-08-2008, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

You have brought up a good point. I keep hearing that one size does not fit all, and that each deaf child should be educated individually, yet the mainstream programs quite often use self contained classrooms. What is the purpose of a self contained classroom? It is to put the deaf children in that particular district in a group so that they all can recieve the same instruction using one particular philosophy and methodology. Self contained classrooms blow the "one size does not fit all" argument right out of the water.

It sure would seem to. I was mainstreamed all day. Six classes/six hrs a day. Some of the deaf students at my school were ALSO mainstreamed with me. There were the ones I had the most contact with. I didn't have contact with the deaf students who were in the self contained classes. I should also note there was also another group of students who were designated as special ED. They had ONE teacher for all six classes. Six subjects and one teacher. It was a very confusing system to say the least!

jillio · 10-08-2008, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick48

Very true. Now it makes sense that when I asked her to state her experience to back up a negative generalization she made about hearing parents of cochlear kids she could not do so.

Just when you thought you heard it all...

Nor are you deaf or a certified teacher of the deaf. Does that make a difference?

jillio · 10-08-2008, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

That is not the case.

Then he is not in a self contained classroom as you stated prior?

**Bottesini** · 10-08-2008, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Nor are you deaf or a certified teacher of the deaf. Does that make a difference?

Well, since he has a deaf child he has equal experience to some.

10-08-2008, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

How about the overall literacy rates, and the number of deaf students graduating from post secondary programs in proportion to the number of hearing students graduating from post secondary programs? Since TC has been the instruction model most often in use for the past 25-30 years, there is a correlation between the two. How exactly would you explain the overall problems with literacy in deaf students?

Any chance you would share the source of these statistics?

I thought you said earlier that oral was being forced on the majority.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

..... If a child can succeed in an oral only environment, that is still an option. But it is being forced on the majority as the educational environment being reccommended for all.......

**Cheri** · 10-08-2008, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

I think it makes a lot of difference. You are not deaf and you are not a qualified TOD. When anyone deaf with actual experience speaks up in one of these threads they are shot down..

You're absolutely correct; It is like they have to be deaf to actually understand us, but not all hearing people are like that, just some, there are some who can be patient with us, listen to our personal experiences, reaching out helps and always respond in kind like rockdrummer for an example.

jillio · 10-08-2008, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottesini

Well, since he has a deaf child he has equal experience to some.

Ah, but the point made was regarding being deaf or a TOD.

10-08-2008, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Then he is not in a self contained classroom as you stated prior?

I thought I said "specialized classes"

jillio · 10-08-2008, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

Any chance you would share the source of these statistics?

I thought you said earlier that oral was being forced on the majority.

Check the State Dept. of Education where you live.

TC is an outgrowth of the oral system. The MCE was added as a concession when the strictly oral method was shown to be failing when examined through the perspective of overall education for the deaf. And since MCEs are the most often used system in a TC program, it is still monolingual and based on spoken English. That has been supported in previous research posted in this thread.

jillio · 10-08-2008, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

I thought I said "specialized classes"

Specialized classes for the deaf in a mainstream program are known as self contained classroom.

But call it what you will. There is a specialized classroom in a public school that groups deaf students together in a central location for instruction. What would you suppose the purpose of that is?

Oceanbreeze · 10-08-2008, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

You're absolutely correct; It is like they have to be deaf to actually understand us, but not all hearing people are like that, just some, there are some who can be patient with us, listen to our personal experiences, reaching out helps and always respond in kind like rockdrummer for an example.

Exactly, Cheri. Especially, to your bolded comment.

10-08-2008, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

You have brought up a good point. I keep hearing that one size does not fit all, and that each deaf child should be educated individually, yet the mainstream programs quite often use self contained classrooms. What is the purpose of a self contained classroom? It is to put the deaf children in that particular district in a group so that they all can recieve the same instruction using one particular philosophy and methodology. Self contained classrooms blow the "one size does not fit all" argument right out of the water.

That just means you don't understand it. One size doesn't fit all doesn't equate to individualized education. It means that one educational approach wont work for every deaf kid. And the paper I provided supports that in the context of a bibi model.

jillio · 10-08-2008, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

You said the study All I meant was that I did not see that statement in the paper. I am not arguing the facts just questioning where that statement was in the article. I didn't see it.

I wasn't quoting. If I had been, I would have used quotation marks.

10-08-2008, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel

Yes I agree with you completely and

You are welcome!!

**Jiro** · 10-08-2008, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

That just means you don't understand it. One size doesn't fit all doesn't equate to individualized education. It means that one educational approach wont work for every deaf kid. And the paper I provided supports that in the context of a bibi model.

we're not talking about one approach for all. We're talking about a standardized approach for MAJORITY. Just like majority of K-12 schools and Colleges have same/similar curriculum guideline. That's why we have SAT, GMAT, LSAT, etc. Apparently - there is no standardized approach for deaf student population in USA.

10-08-2008, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

....... There is a specialized classroom in a public school that groups deaf students together in a central location for instruction. What would you suppose the purpose of that is?

Education

10-08-2008, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

You're absolutely correct; It is like they have to be deaf to actually understand us, but not all hearing people are like that, just some, there are some who can be patient with us, listen to our personal experiences, reaching out helps and always respond in kind like rockdrummer for an example.

awww. Thanks!

jillio · 10-08-2008, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

That just means you don't understand it. One size doesn't fit all doesn't equate to individualized education. It means that one educational approach wont work for every deaf kid. And the paper I provided supports that in the context of a bibi model.

You keep saying "one size doesn't fit all", yet your son is in a specialized class, better known as a self contained classroom with other deaf students who are being taught under the same philosophy and with the same methodology. What exactly is that but using one approach to teach the deaf children as a goup in that district?

And I understand exactly what a self contained deaf classroom is, have very real experience with a self contained program, and also very real experience with inclusion. Add to that very real experience with a deaf school setting. Beyond that, we can add very real experience with children other than my own coming from these various programs, experience with assessing their academic functioning, and addressing their needs under an IEP.

The paper you provided does not include actual research. It is a call for more research on the topic. Therefore, it draws no conclusions other than the need for additional research is evident.

**Daredevel7** · 10-08-2008, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

That just means you don't understand it. One size doesn't fit all doesn't equate to individualized education. It means that one educational approach wont work for every deaf kid. And the paper I provided supports that in the context of a bibi model.

Do you mean to say that within those specialized/self contained classroom (let's just say that TC was the method of your choice), each deaf child there was a result of a parent saying "I think TC is the best for my child"?

jillio · 10-08-2008, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

Education

Education as a group. Otherwise, there would be no more than one student in the classroom.

**Cheri** · 10-08-2008, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

awww. Thanks!

Just stating the truth; because I haven't seen you attacked our personal experiences/stories and you're welcome.

10-08-2008, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

we're not talking about one approach for all. We're talking about a standardized approach for MAJORITY. Just like majority of K-12 schools and Colleges have same/similar curriculum guideline. That's why we have SAT, GMAT, LSAT, etc. Apparently - there is no standardized approach for deaf student population in USA.

What about the kids that don't fall in what you believe is best for the majority. What happens to them?

Quote:

“This critical examination of some of the most frequent claims made by supporters of bilingual-bicultural models of literacy education for deaf students questions the viability of these claims as sufficient foundation and basis for justifying the pedagogical argument. In raising this question our goal is not to argue that these claims are “right” or “wrong.” This would contribute little to an already prolonged debate and would pander to the fallacious notion that there is one “best” and only way to educate deaf children. Nor should this criticism be seen as the basis for making a general argument against bilingual education for deaf students. This is a point we made at the outset. However, if this approach to educating deaf children is to be seen as appropriate for the larger numbers of students, its tenets and theoretical foundations must be able to withstand close examination, and its proponents cannot conveniently ignore the current theory, knowledge, and research data that do not fit the model.”

Bilingual-bicultural models of literacy education for deaf students: considering the claims -- Mayer and Akamatsu 4 (1): 1 -- The Journal of Deaf Studies and Deaf Education

**Angel** · 10-08-2008, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oceanbreeze

At least, I'm trying to learn. Give me credit for that.

Great, I'm glad you are here to learn but please do not make assumption about the majority of deaf people who have a lack of english skills came from Total Communication since there are many deaf people from all walks of life -- oralist, cued-speech, ASL, SEE, PSE users and also varying degrees of hearing (CI users and hearing aid users) and speech, etc. came from either mainstreamed programs, Total Communication, Bi-Bi etc. Just because one program may works for one child will not necessarily work for another doesn't mean that program failed. each child is different, no child is the same.

The bottom line is there is no one-size-fits-all approach to educating a deaf child.

10-08-2008, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

You keep saying "one size doesn't fit all", yet your son is in a specialized class, better known as a self contained classroom with other deaf students who are being taught under the same philosophy and with the same methodology. What exactly is that but using one approach to teach the deaf children as a goup in that district?

And I understand exactly what a self contained deaf classroom is, have very real experience with a self contained program, and also very real experience with inclusion. Add to that very real experience with a deaf school setting. Beyond that, we can add very real experience with children other than my own coming from these various programs, experience with assessing their academic functioning, and addressing their needs under an IEP.

The paper you provided does not include actual research. It is a call for more research on the topic. Therefore, it draws no conclusions other than the need for additional research is evident.

One size doesnt fit all means that there is no single best way to educate a deaf child. It has nothing to do with the particular program my child is in.

**Jiro** · 10-08-2008, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

What about the kids that don't fall in what you believe is best for the majority. What happens to them?

that's why there are special school/program for that and/or private lessons and/or home tutoring. What about for hearing student who is "slow"? same thing.

**Angel** · 10-08-2008, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

One size doesnt fit all means that there is no single best way to educate a deaf child. It has nothing to do with the particular program my child is in.

Exactly!!!

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