Seeing Voices - Page 3

**shel90** · 09-01-2007, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Langauge delayed in the sense of having been in an oral environment?

Yes...like numerous of deaf children being placed in strictly oral-only environment, many get delayed so those are referred to her for CS by the parents in hope that their children will catch up since the oral method didnt work for them. Just like we get kids referred to our school after struggling with the oral-only method. It happens within public schools too. The kids get referred to different programs in the same public schools after an approach doesnt work for them. It is nuts!!!

Buffalo · 09-01-2007, 05:03 PM

I am going to order "Seeing Voices" by Oliver Sacks along with "Rethinking the Education of the Deaf Students" by Sue Livingston. Any suggestion on other books on Deaf Education??

jillio · 09-01-2007, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Yes...like numerous of deaf children being placed in strictly oral-only environment, many get delayed so those are referred to her for CS by the parents in hope that their children will catch up since the oral method didnt work for them. Just like we get kids referred to our school after struggling with the oral-only method. It happens within public schools too. The kids get referred to different programs in the same public schools after an approach doesnt work for them. It is nuts!!!

That's exactly what I thought. Just wanted to be sure! The greatest language delays are in children raised in an oral only environment.

Grummer · 09-01-2007, 08:04 PM

I second to Jillio's and Shel90's latest comments, for they [hearing people] do not realise the damage of withholding Sign Language and Deaf culture in classrooms does not only exist in the educational sense, but also in the wider cultural and social aspects which affects the state of Deaf individuals.

Self-affirmation of their wholeness as Deaf individuals is so important. I can not over emphasie this.

Cued speech is not a good tool, its is simply a hearie's invention bent obsession with oralism, it is torturous. you have to be deaf to understand., moreso it failed a vast majority of deaf people in the past and it will continue to. Bet you in 10 years, even 20, there will be still problems with illiterate deafs from using the CS tactics in 'education'.

jillio · 09-02-2007, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buffalo

I am going to order "Seeing Voices" by Oliver Sacks along with "Rethinking the Education of the Deaf Students" by Sue Livingston. Any suggestion on other books on Deaf Education??

The Other Side of Silence has a lot of historical information regarding deaf ed. Ifound it very interesting as well. And, of course, When The Mind Hears.

Cloggy · 09-02-2007, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Cloggy,

5 hands at the temples, moving forward and together in front of forehead until fingers almost touch.

Poor me - I only have 2 hands... And my wife and one of my children helping out looks really silly....

I can do this...
" "5" hands at the temples, moving forward and together in front of forehead until fingers almost touch "....
still.... how can I "move them together" and at the same time make them "almost touch". With me, when I move them together, they touch...
Can you send a picture of yourself doing this sign?

BTW... aren't you

jillio · 09-02-2007, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grummer

I second to Jillio's and Shel90's latest comments, for they [hearing people] do not realise the damage of withholding Sign Language and Deaf culture in classrooms does not only exist in the educational sense, but also in the wider cultural and social aspects which affects the state of Deaf individuals.

Self-affirmation of their wholeness as Deaf individuals is so important. I can not over emphasie this.

Cued speech is not a good tool, its is simply a hearie's invention bent obsession with oralism, it is torturous. you have to be deaf to understand., moreso it failed a vast majority of deaf people in the past and it will continue to. Bet you in 10 years, even 20, there will be still problems with illiterate deafs from using the CS tactics in 'education'.

jillio · 09-02-2007, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

Poor me - I only have 2 hands... And my wife and one of my children helping out looks really silly....

I can do this...
" "5" hands at the temples, moving forward and together in front of forehead until fingers almost touch "....
still.... how can I "move them together" and at the same time make them "almost touch". With me, when I move them together, they touch...
Can you send a picture of yourself doing this sign?

BTW... aren't you

Just as I thought. Not as profiecient at sign as you would like to portray yourself, are you, cloggy?

I can do better than that......the fact that you had difficulty understanding the verbal description of a visual sign is indication aplenty thatthe information is processed in 2 different ways.

Rather than sending you a picture of myself doing the sign, why don't I samply interpret for you? "Narrowminded".

loml · 09-02-2007, 04:19 PM

removing ambiguity of lip reading,YIPEE!!!! It has not been presented this way, although being a team player CS can certainly work with an oral program.
No. CS is avalable to support the childs learning. I like that!

And so is ASL. I like that.After interpretation, although a cuer would not need it to be interpreted being that they would be fluent in English as well. ASL is a team player? Definately, ASL and cued speech go hand in hand. (no pun intended) It is much older than ASL, it eveolved from the people it serves (deaf, not hearing) and it conveys much more information than does CS. ASL conveys information differently that Englsih via CS, is it really more? Juries out on that one.

Oh and ASL to English, literate hearing people.
if the child already has a good foundation in some form of sign communication(thought I would add the rest of the sentence there)TrueAnd your point would be?My point.. a child must have a an accurate and fluent role model, preferably native user, to have a good foundation in ASL, English, French, Hebrew etc.
and???

Multiple uses, good!

Phoneme-grapheme relationships distinguished visually. Raising readers!

Cognitive research has shown that there are many avenues to kiteracy that do not rely on phoneme/morpheme information of spoken language.Okay. Sounds like an arduroes task. I believe in K.I.S.S. Got some links to this info please.

Quote:

"It goes back to having a pathological view of deafness," said Mark Rust, coordinator of the deaf education program at McDaniel College in Westminster. "The pathological view of deafness is, 'I need to fix you.' And the easiest way to fix you is to give you English."

Can't locate that one in Advantages article, where are you getting this one from?? and what does this have to do with CA as a tool for literacy?? Okay found it. His opinion. Certainly not mine. Not sure what conclusion you are making here.

I cut and pasted from your articles. AHH...In the "Here to Stay Article"
Here is the "Learning of Abstract Language .Don't see that statement anywhere."

Quote:

The Learning of Abstract Language

A common impression among educators of hearing-impaired children is that it is very difficult for a deaf child to learn abstract language. Nothing is further from the truth. Verbal abstractions are difficult for a deaf child to understand if

1) he/she is weak in verbal language, or
2) if the verbal abstraction is visually ambiguous, as in unsupported oral/aural communication. Signs for abstract concepts are learned readily by a deaf child through communication in signs, if the child already has a good foundation in some form of sign communication. Similarly, verbal abstractions are picked up readily by a deaf child growing up with Cued Speech, just as by a hearing child.

Consider the concept of time in the future, which can be learned naturally and easily through experience associated with clear language input. Mother answers the telephone and, after a brief conversation says, “That was Daddy. He’s coming in a few minutes.” A three-year-old deaf child, if he knows what his mother said, will know (the first time) only that the conversation was with Daddy. If Daddy arrives a few minutes later, the first seed of the idea of the future is sown. If the sequence happens repeatedly, the child soon knows that when Mother answers the phone and then says something like “Daddy’s coming,” they can expect Daddy soon.

Appropriate use of statements such as , “We’ll go in a little while,” and “We’ll go to the lake tomorrow,” can lead quickly to understanding of the concept of the future. In summary, the learning of abstract language is no easier and no harder for a deaf child than for a hearing child. In either case the child must have adequate language input and communication must be in a clear form.

Cued Speech providing equal access to information via transliteration, NOT interpretation. EXCELLENT!
This is a limitation, not an advantage.[/COLOR] "this is a limitation, not an advantage".

"When cueing was invented at Gallaudet, it was invented for the purpose of teaching deaf people English reading and writing," Raimondo said. "But what happened is, it got taken over by people who said, 'Let's use it for speaking and spoken language.' So I think it has been used to exclude sign language. "Which article is this from?? Yes, CS teaches deaf people English reading and writing. Yes it can be used for speaking and spoken languages, added bonus! CS works well with sign language, another bonus! ASL teaches reading and writng skills, is a complete and separate language capable of conveying complete conceptual information. Isn't the issue oneof literacy, not oral skills? Juries out on success of ASL, DOHA and literacy. CS aiding with oral skills, if that is the choice, then it is an added bonus, though of course not what CS was intended to do.CS has always been about literacy!

Several thousand, and growing world wide!!!!
Anything to support that? I do, then again, you wouldn't believe it anyway. lol

True though this is changing as more parents demand CS.

Anything to support that? And if more parents are demanding it, it because of the perceived convienence to the parent and not what is in the best interest of the child. Yes, but would you beleive it? lol K.I.S.S. To suggest denying a deaf child inclusion within his/her families language/culture/history via CS is not in the best interest of the child or family. You reported family fluency in ASL is an anomoly. I believe, provided the opportunity of family language via CS, in conjunction with ASL via a native signer, future deaf/hoh child could be bilingual/bicutural.

Ture, nice and consistent.????? The system of CS is consistent.

True, not regular but does happen. Things are changing! Take Illinois University for example, or Florida State. I can find out names and contacts for you.

Yes, things are changing slowly.Indeed, like eating an elephant, "one bite at a time". And support for the Bi-Bi method is increasing at a much greater rate.So you say....

Okay, unfortunate though.

Guess that is his philosophy, wonder how its working for him?? Got any SAT scores? or an email...maybe I should email him

What exactly, do SAT scores have to do with it? Once again,this is from your post. Go back to it to find the email address. "It's ridiculous, actually, to think that cueing could ever eradicate ASL and its accompanying culture," said Allison Kaftan, the English doctoral student, whose 4-year-old daughter also is deaf.

"But the frank and honest truth is that cueing is extremely successful in conveying English effortlessly to deaf people," said Kaftan, who cues with her daughter. "Since we all hold proficiency in English as the gold standard of literacy, cueing is here to staySupporting the child and optimising language, well done!. "Here to Stay" Topic: Deaf Education Post #1

CS does not optimize, it limits, bu providing onmy one form of language...English, rather than 2 forms. Cueing English provides English, cueing French provides French, cueing Spanish provides Spanish and so on and so on. So far, that is 3. Then again it is used for a least 60 different languages,so...... If you really have to count :shrug:
First class support and research bonus! Open minded in Spain!

Visual representation of spoken language via CS, anot excellent point!Only for those that adhere to a strict oral environment. Otherwise, spoken langauge does not need to be visable except in written form.Wrong again!
CS eliminating the ambiguity of speech reading, good good! Inclusion in your family via CS. So very important!!!

Only if your family refused to accommodate the deaf child's needs. More than one way to meets the needs of a deaf child.

loml · 09-02-2007, 04:29 PM

Quote:

CS research was, is and will continue to be consistent: literacy, language and inclusion. Course there would be MORE research, if there was more money. Perhaps the ASL research will share?

jillio

Quote:

doubt that very seriously. Two different perspectives. And the research has been consistent for any number of years.......deaf children exposed to both sign and speech are the highest academic achievers

.

I doubt that they would share too. Sad isn't it.

I'm not so sure the perspectives are that different. Afterall, is about providing the tools for success.

If sign and speech produce the highest academic achievers ( oh got some links to that please), and CS clears up the ambiguities of lip reading aides in speech, why wouldn't you use it?

loml · 09-02-2007, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by loml

Quote:

Look in the mirror.

jillio

Quote:

What? Are you saying that support of sign is holding back CS? Or that CS is not being used by more families because they see the limitaitons? Explain this comment, please.

Hmmmm, "support of sign holding back CS.....well at certain levels yes I would. In the majority of North American ASL enviroments grudges are held against a the system because it has the word "speech" in it. When in actuality, CS is about improving the lives of deaf children, their families, hoh/ deaf seniors and future generations of children. CS people embrace ASL, the majority of ASL people cannot say the same about CS.

Originally Posted by loml

Quote:

Oh I am looking at the complications, believe me! I have a very clear understanding of the issues.

jillio

Quote:

I believe that you think you have a clear understanding

I am well aware of what goes on, and how much misinformation is "out there" regarding CS. Course you aren't going to believe that so....

loml · 09-02-2007, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Sounds like an arduroes task.

Before the spelling police get me

........Sounds like an arduos task.

Tousi · 09-02-2007, 05:59 PM

And it's still not right, lol. It's arduous since your'e interested.

loml · 09-02-2007, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tousi

And it's still not right, lol. It's arduous since your'e interested.

Thanks muchly Tousi!

jillio · 09-02-2007, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

removing ambiguity of lip reading,YIPEE!!!! It has not been presented this way, although being a team player CS can certainly work with an oral program.
No. CS is avalable to support the childs learning. I like that!
Read your articles. It has most certainly been presented this way, most of all by its inventor.
And so is ASL. I like that.After interpretation, although a cuer would not need it to be interpreted being that they would be fluent in English as well.

This is where your misunderstanding starts to become evident. You are knowledge in linguistics is showingassuming fluency ion English simply because one is a cuer. You cannot support that with anything.
ASL is a team player? Definately, ASL and cued speech go hand in hand. (no pun intended) It is much older than ASL, it eveolved from the people it serves (deaf, not hearing) and it conveys much more information than does CS.
ASL conveys information differently that Englsih via CS, is it really more? Juries out on that one.

Nope, jury isn't out. Once again, your lack of linguistic knowledge is showing.Oh and ASL to English, literate hearing people.
if the child already has a good foundation in some form of sign communication(thought I would add the rest of the sentence there)TrueAnd your point would be?My point.. a child must have a an accurate and fluent role model, preferably native user, to have a good foundation in ASL, English, French, Hebrew etc.

There is research that indicates that deaf children with a less than fluent model of sign will surpass their models in correct usage.
and???

Multiple uses, good!

Phoneme-grapheme relationships distinguished visually. Raising readers!

Not necessarily. There is more to literacy than that. If distinguishing phonemes were all that was necessary, there is no hearing kid that would ever have trouble reading. This certainly is not the case.
Cognitive research has shown that there are many avenues to kiteracy that do not rely on phoneme/morpheme information of spoken language.Okay. Sounds like an arduroes task. I believe in K.I.S.S. Got some links to this info please.
Obviously you believe in the K.I.S.S. philosophy. Your posts way oversimplify the issues surrounding literacy, language acquisition, and linguistics. And I've already posted that research.

Can't locate that one in Advantages article, where are you getting this one from?? and what does this have to do with CA as a tool for literacy?? Okay found it. His opinion. Certainly not mine. Not sure what conclusion you are making here.

I cut and pasted from your articles. AHH...In the "Here to Stay Article"
Here is the "Learning of Abstract Language .Don't see that statement anywhere."

Cued Speech providing equal access to information via transliteration, NOT interpretation. EXCELLENT!
This is a limitation, not an advantage.[/COLOR] "this is a limitation, not an advantage".

More evidence that you don't fully understand the issues.

"When cueing was invented at Gallaudet, it was invented for the purpose of teaching deaf people English reading and writing," Raimondo said. "But what happened is, it got taken over by people who said, 'Let's use it for speaking and spoken language.' So I think it has been used to exclude sign language. "Which article is this from?? Yes, CS teaches deaf people English reading and writing. Yes it can be used for speaking and spoken languages, added bonus! CS works well with sign language, another bonus! ASL teaches reading and writng skills, is a complete and separate language capable of conveying complete conceptual information. Isn't the issue oneof literacy, not oral skills? Juries out on success of ASL, DOHA and literacy.
Obviously you are not up to date on your research.
CS aiding with oral skills, if that is the choice, then it is an added bonus, though of course not what CS was intended to do.CS has always been about literacy!
No CS started out as a possible solution to literacy, but has evolved, as I have pointed out above. Andit has not proven to be successful. You still cannot seem to explain how a system invented over 40 years ago could be so wonderfully seccessful, and still be used by only 1,000 people in the U.S.

Several thousand, and growing world wide!!!!
Anything to support that? I do, then again, you wouldn't believe it anyway. lol

That's what I thought.

True though this is changing as more parents demand CS.

Anything to support that? And if more parents are demanding it, it because of the perceived convienence to the parent and not what is in the best interest of the child. Yes, but would you beleive it? lol K.I.S.S. I'm already aware of your need to keep it simple.
To suggest denying a deaf child inclusion within his/her families language/culture/history via CS is not in the best interest of the child or family. You reported family fluency in ASL is an anomoly. I believe, provided the opportunity of family language via CS, in conjunction with ASL via a native signer, future deaf/hoh child could be bilingual/bicutural.

English already has a visual form. It is called writing. If a child is giventhe advantage of early and fluent ASL, that can be used to teach written English. That is Bicultural=-BilingualL

OR="Green"]Ture, nice and consistent.[/COLOR]????? The system of CS is consistent.

True, not regular but does happen. Things are changing! Take Illinois University for example, or Florida State. I can find out names and contacts for you.

Yes, things are changing slowly.Indeed, like eating an elephant, "one bite at a time". And support for the Bi-Bi method is increasing at a much greater rate.So you say....

Okay, unfortunate though.

Guess that is his philosophy, wonder how its working for him?? Got any SAT scores? or an email...maybe I should email him

What exactly, do SAT scores have to do with it? Once again,this is from your post. Go back to it to find the email address. "It's ridiculous, actually, to think that cueing could ever eradicate ASL and its accompanying culture," said Allison Kaftan, the English doctoral student, whose 4-year-old daughter also is deaf.

"But the frank and honest truth is that cueing is extremely successful in conveying English effortlessly to deaf people," said Kaftan, who cues with her daughter. "Since we all hold proficiency in English as the gold standard of literacy, cueing is here to staySupporting the child and optimising language, well done!. "Here to Stay" Topic: Deaf Education Post #1

CS does not optimize, it limits, bu providing onmy one form of language...English, rather than 2 forms. Cueing English provides English, cueing French provides French, cueing Spanish provides Spanish and so on and so on. So far, that is 3. Then again it is used for a least 60 different languages,so...... If you really have to count :shrug:

You still don't understand the difference between a separate language and a mode of language, do you?
First class support and research bonus! Open minded in Spain!

Visual representation of spoken language via CS, anot excellent point!Only for those that adhere to a strict oral environment. Otherwise, spoken langauge does not need to be visable except in written form.Wrong again!
How so?

CS eliminating the ambiguity of speech reading, good good! Inclusion in your family via CS. So very important!!!

Again, only if the family insists on maintaining a strict oral environment.

Only if your family refused to accommodate the deaf child's needs. More than one way to meets the needs of a deaf child.

Yep, and oral only CS has not proven to be one of the ones that is succesful.

jillio · 09-02-2007, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

jillio.

I doubt that they would share too. Sad isn't it.

I don't think so.

I'm not so sure the perspectives are that different. Afterall, is about providing the tools for success.

If sign and speech produce the highest academic achievers ( oh got some links to that please)
I've already posted the research.
, and CS clears up the ambiguities of lip reading aides in speech,
There is no supporting evidence that it aids in speech, only that it removes the abiguites in speech reading. But, if a family is using sign, then the abiguities in li[ reading do not need to be cleared up via an invented MCE. Those abiguities have already been clarified through sign. The reason that the ambiguities in lipreading are important is that they interfere with complete transmission of a message. That message can be completely transmitted through ASL, thus no need for CS.
why wouldn't you use it?

Its redundant. Unless a child is in a strictly oral environment.

jillio · 09-02-2007, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

Originally Posted by loml

jillio

Hmmmm, "support of sign holding back CS.....well at certain levels yes I would. In the majority of North American ASL enviroments grudges are held against a the system because it has the word "speech" in it. When in actuality, CS is about improving the lives of deaf children, their families, hoh/ deaf seniors and future generations of children. CS people embrace ASL, the majority of ASL people cannot say the same about CS.

That is because, as I said before, it is redundant for ASLers.

Originally Posted by loml

jillio

I am well aware of what goes on, and how much misinformation is "out there" regarding CS. Course you aren't going to believe that so....

Waht misinformation? I am referencing your own articles.

jillio · 09-02-2007, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tousi

And it's still not right, lol. It's arduous since your'e interested.

So much for literacy!

Cloggy · 09-03-2007, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tousi

And it's still not right, lol. It's arduous since your'e interested.

Regarding literacy....
"you are" can be abbreviated to "you're" - not "your'e"..

loml · 09-03-2007, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by loml
removing ambiguity of lip reading,YIPEE!!!! It has not been presented this way, although being a team player CS can certainly work with an oral program.
No. CS is avalable to support the childs learning. I like that!
Read your articles. It has most certainly been presented this way, most of all by its inventor.
And so is ASL. I like that.After interpretation, although a cuer would not need it to be interpreted being that they would be fluent in English as well.

Quote:

This is where your misunderstanding starts to become evident. You are knowledge in linguistics is showingassuming fluency ion English simply because one is a cuer.

LOL I have never stated that cueing is a stand alone tool.You cannot support that with anything.
ASL is a team player? Definately, ASL and cued speech go hand in hand. (no pun intended) It is much older than ASL, it eveolved from the people it serves (deaf, not hearing) and it conveys much more information than does CS.
ASL conveys information differently that Englsih via CS, is it really more? Juries out on that one. Nope, jury isn't out Once again, your lack of linguistic knowledge is showing. If you say so. Oh and ASL to English, literate hearing people.
if the child already has a good foundation in some form of sign communication(thought I would add the rest of the sentence there)TrueAnd your point would be?My point.. a child must have a an accurate and fluent role model, preferably native user, to have a good foundation in ASL, English, French, Hebrew etc.

There is research that indicates that deaf children with a less than fluent model of sign will surpass their models in correct usage.after they have been exposed to fluent signers...Okay..... so.....and???

Multiple uses, good!

Phoneme-grapheme relationships distinguished visually. Raising readers!

Not necessarily. There is more to literacy than that. If distinguishing phonemes were all that was necessary, there is no hearing kid that would ever have trouble reading. This certainly is not the case. Of course there are more variables, nice to have a tool that is kinesthetic, visual and can be auditory, like CS.Cognitive research has shown that there are many avenues to kiteracy that do not rely on phoneme/morpheme information of spoken language.Okay. Sounds like an arduroes task. I believe in K.I.S.S. Got some links to this info please.
Obviously you believe in the K.I.S.S. philosophy. Your posts way oversimplify the issues surrounding literacy, language acquisition, and linguistics. And I've already posted that research.Cueing is not complicated is purely logic. Playing linguistics with it is simply an attempt to make things complicated. You continue to show your lack of experience regarding cueing and literacy. Guess that is that then.

Oh right, forgot, can't ask for research agian, sheesh where is that rule book?

Can't locate that one in Advantages article, where are you getting this one from?? and what does this have to do with CA as a tool for literacy?? Okay found it. His opinion. Certainly not mine. Not sure what conclusion you are making here.

I cut and pasted from your articles. AHH...In the "Here to Stay Article"
Here is the "Learning of Abstract Language .Don't see that statement anywhere."

Cued Speech providing equal access to information via transliteration, NOT interpretation. EXCELLENT!
This is a limitation, not an advantage.[/COLOR] "this is a limitation, not an advantage".
More evidence that you don't fully understand the issues.So you say.....

"When cueing was invented at Gallaudet, it was invented for the purpose of teaching deaf people English reading and writing," Raimondo said. "But what happened is, it got taken over by people who said, 'Let's use it for speaking and spoken language.' So I think it has been used to exclude sign language. "Which article is this from?? Yes, CS teaches deaf people English reading and writing. Yes it can be used for speaking and spoken languages, added bonus! CS works well with sign language, another bonus! ASL teaches reading and writng skills, is a complete and separate language capable of conveying complete conceptual information. Isn't the issue oneof literacy, not oral skills? Juries out on success of ASL, DOHA and literacy.

Obviously you are not up to date on your research.

Are you going to provide me with the research?
CS aiding with oral skills, if that is the choice, then it is an added bonus, though of course not what CS was intended to do.CS has always been about literacy!

Quote:

No CS started out as a possible solution to literacy, but has evolved, as I have pointed out above. Andit has not proven to be successful. You still cannot seem to explain how a system invented over 40 years ago could be so wonderfully seccessful, and still be used by only 1,000 people in the U.S.

Wow maybe when you live in the ASL Political Power House you really don't see it. Sheesh!
Several thousand, and growing world wide!!!!
Anything to support that? I do, then again, you wouldn't believe it anyway. lol

Quote:

That's what I thought.

Yeah me too.
True though this is changing as more parents demand CS.

Anything to support that? And if more parents are demanding it, it because of the perceived convienence to the parent and not what is in the best interest of the child. Yes, but would you beleive it? lol K.I.S.S.

Quote:

I'm already aware of your need to keep it simple.

Cueing is simple. As I am of yours to make things ARDUOUS!To suggest denying a deaf child inclusion within his/her families language/culture/history via CS is not in the best interest of the child or family. You reported family fluency in ASL is an anomoly. I believe, provided the opportunity of family language via CS, in conjunction with ASL via a native signer, future deaf/hoh child could be bilingual/bicutural.

Quote:

English already has a visual form. It is called writing. If a child is giventhe advantage of early and fluent ASL, that can be used to teach written English. That is Bicultural=-BilingualL

IF Like I said anomoly!
OR="Green"]Ture, nice and consistent.[/color]????? The system of CS is consistent.

True, not regular but does happen. Things are changing! Take Illinois University for example, or Florida State. I can find out names and contacts for you.

Yes, things are changing slowly.Indeed, like eating an elephant, "one bite at a time". And support for the Bi-Bi method is increasing at a much greater rate.So you say....

Okay, unfortunate though.

Guess that is his philosophy, wonder how its working for him?? Got any SAT scores? or an email...maybe I should email him

What exactly, do SAT scores have to do with it? Once again,this is from your post. Go back to it to find the email address. "It's ridiculous, actually, to think that cueing could ever eradicate ASL and its accompanying culture," said Allison Kaftan, the English doctoral student, whose 4-year-old daughter also is deaf.

"But the frank and honest truth is that cueing is extremely successful in conveying English effortlessly to deaf people," said Kaftan, who cues with her daughter. "Since we all hold proficiency in English as the gold standard of literacy, cueing is here to staySupporting the child and optimising language, well done!. "Here to Stay" Topic: Deaf Education Post #1

CS does not optimize, it limits, bu providing onmy one form of language...English, rather than 2 forms. Cueing English provides English, cueing French provides French, cueing Spanish provides Spanish and so on and so on. So far, that is 3. Then again it is used for a least 60 different languages,so...... If you really have to count :shrug:

You still don't understand the difference between a separate language and a mode of language, do you?
First class support and research bonus! Open minded in Spain!

Visual representation of spoken language via CS, anot excellent point!

Quote:

Only for those that adhere to a strict oral environment. Otherwise, spoken langauge does not need to be visable except in written form.Wrong again

! No it doesn;t have to be strictly oral, but then again you won't beleive that either. lol For deaf/hoh people English can be visual via CS.
How so?

CS eliminating the ambiguity of speech reading, good good! Inclusion in your family via CS. So very important!!!

Again, only if the family insists on maintaining a strict oral environment.

Only if your family refused to accommodate the deaf child's needs. More than one way to meets the needs of a deaf child.

Quote:

Yep, and oral only CS has not proven to be one of the ones that is succesful

You have support for this statement? I have to go find that research too do I? Again, you are the one who keeps saying oral only. Not my words.

I find this really funny, you keep making statements about CS in an attempt, imo, to make it seem so complicated. The system is not, nor never will be complicated.

loml · 09-03-2007, 12:14 PM

loml

Quote:

Hmmmm, "support of sign holding back CS.....well at certain levels yes I would. In the majority of North American ASL enviroments grudges are held against a the system because it has the word "speech" in it. When in actuality, CS is about improving the lives of deaf children, their families, hoh/ deaf seniors and future generations of children. CS people embrace ASL, the majority of ASL people cannot say the same about CS.

jillio

Quote:

That is because, as I said before, it is redundant for ASLers

.

Redundant??? are you referring to speech classes?? A person does not need to be oral to use CS. You like to insist that they do. Simply not true.

loml · 09-03-2007, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Waht misinformation? I am referencing your own articles.

LOL

jillio · 09-03-2007, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

Regarding literacy....
"you are" can be abbreviated to "you're" - not "your'e"..

Yes cloggy, and its heard, not heared. There is a difference between a typo, and a consitently misspelled word. Once again, you are trolling. And to think that you said you were willing to engage in a reasonalbe and iformed discussion regarding deaf education if I would start a thread regardingn such. I am getting the distinct impressiont hat you are unable to honore your promise not because you don't want to, but because you are intellectually incapable of doing so.

jillio · 09-03-2007, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

loml

jillio.

Redundant??? are you referring to speech classes?? A person does not need to be oral to use CS. You like to insist that they do. Simply not true.

Do you understand the maning of redundant? If a child is not oral, then they are utilizing sign to some degree for communication. But that is not even what I am referring to. English already has a visual mode that has served well for eons. Its called writing. And if a person is already communicating in sign, that can be used to teach the L2 language of English. One only needs to speech read if one does not have the benefit of sign to clarify. That would be a strictly oral situation. Why would one use CS and sign together? What would you do....sign one word, and then cue it , also? That is what I mean by redudant.

Again, everything comes back to speech classes. I thought you were trying to discuss literacy issues, as that is what this topic is about. It has absolutely nothing to do with speech classes.

jillio · 09-03-2007, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

LOL

You find the fact that your research doesn't support your claims to be funny? That's not surprizing.

Cloggy · 09-03-2007, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Yes cloggy, and its heard, not heared.

Yes, I heared, or heared... guess English is not my native language..

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

There is a difference between a typo, and a consitently (sp)misspelled word.

I know... when you do it it's a typo in your view. When someone else does it, it is a big thing....!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Once again, you are trolling. And to think that you said you were willing to engage in a reasonalbe (sp?) and iformed (sp?)discussion regarding deaf education if I would start a thread regardingn such. I am getting the distinct impressiont (sp) hat you are unable to honore (sp)your promise not because you don't want to, but because you are intellectually incapable of doing so.

jillio · 09-03-2007, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

Yes, I heared, or heared... guess English is not my native language..

I know... when you do it it's a typo in your view. When someone else does it, it is a big thing....!!!

You are the one that jumped into this. What's the matter cloggy? Dish it our but can't take it. For your information, the difference between a typo and a spelling error would be evident in consistency.

jillio · 09-03-2007, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cloggy

Yes, I heared, or heared... guess English is not my native language..

I know... when you do it it's a typo in your view. When someone else does it, it is a big thing....!!!

Like I said, you are completely incapable of engaging in a reasonable, intelligent discussion,as is evidenced by your consistent childish and agumentative posts. Go read a book, or interact with your child.

loml · 09-03-2007, 12:54 PM

jillio

Quote:

You find the fact that your research doesn't support your claims to be funny? That's not surprizing.

Actually, I find you laughable.

jillio · 09-03-2007, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loml

jillio

Actually, I find you laughable.

I don't find that surprizing, either. You are obviously very well versed in making judgement without all of the information necessary to make correct judgements.

And, once again, this is not a discussion of CS, nor of CI. We are discussing deaf education. Stick to the topic.

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09-01-2007, 05:03 PM	#62 (permalink)
Buffalo Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 4,025	I am going to order "Seeing Voices" by Oliver Sacks along with "Rethinking the Education of the Deaf Students" by Sue Livingston. Any suggestion on other books on Deaf Education??

09-01-2007, 08:04 PM	#64 (permalink)
Grummer Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: In the Batcave Posts: 9,518	I second to Jillio's and Shel90's latest comments, for they [hearing people] do not realise the damage of withholding Sign Language and Deaf culture in classrooms does not only exist in the educational sense, but also in the wider cultural and social aspects which affects the state of Deaf individuals. Self-affirmation of their wholeness as Deaf individuals is so important. I can not over emphasie this. Cued speech is not a good tool, its is simply a hearie's invention bent obsession with oralism, it is torturous. you have to be deaf to understand., moreso it failed a vast majority of deaf people in the past and it will continue to. Bet you in 10 years, even 20, there will be still problems with illiterate deafs from using the CS tactics in 'education'.

09-02-2007, 05:59 PM	#73 (permalink)
Tousi Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 15,732	And it's still not right, lol. It's arduous since your'e interested.