rick48

If you re-read the posts you will see that I requested the information for those parents who may have a child in a program or are considering the programs you referenced but did not name. As my child is already in college, the information is of no use to me personally but would help others. So, consider the following advice, "[i]f you spent more time actually attempting to comprewhend the issues, and less trying to refute everything I say based on the fact that it is me who is saying it, you'd be much better off."
Rick

Deafness

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shel90

About 8 years ago, that happened a lot but these days I dont see it happening as much before probably because there are more hearing people taking ASL classes and more and more oral deaf people wanting to learn sign so I think the community has changed some with these kinds of attitudes. I think more and more people are more accepting. I can only think of 2 reasons why deaf people would reject people...if the person say that they have no interest in learning sign language or the deaf people themselves are so against any people who didnt grow up culturally Deaf.

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"A child educated only at school is an uneducated child." -George Santayana

rockdrummer

Isn't it not just learning sign language but more specifically ASL?

shel90

Can u rephrase that..I am not sure what u are really asking..thanks.

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~Shel~

"A child educated only at school is an uneducated child." -George Santayana

deafdyke

EXCELLENT point! Very few dhh oral kids can really have 100% access to spoken English. They still have a very rudimentary language, and don't get the meat and potatos of English.

rockdrummer

You said What I am asking is if you mean ASL when you say sign language.

shel90

Nope.

we know that it is unrealistic to expect people bwho learn sign language late to become fluent in ASL immediately. It takes about 2 to 5 years depending on the indivoidual. Iam saying that if people refuse to even try saying that they don't need it, that is going to be a reason for the rejection from the deaf community. I mean...everyone who has been involved with the deaf community has always shown an interest in learning sign language and they say they hope to become fluent in ASL.

It would be like going to Mexico and wanting to live there but refuse to learn Spanish cuz it is not needed. I am sure that would be taken as an insult by the Mexicans living there. It is about respect..

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"A child educated only at school is an uneducated child." -George Santayana

flip

Wise.. Agree that it is many reasons for rejection, and there are seldom good reasons to reject, but that is not the point here.

The point is that I think we are underestimating the amount of oralists that lacks good core language skills. Notice how many ex-oralists that are stuck with SEE, while complaining that their signing skills sucks? At the same time, interpreters learn ASL with far less contact with deaf people.

rockdrummer

Shel, it's not that simple just to say sign language. As you know there are many variations of sign. My question is do you think the deaf community would reject someone that knows other forms of sign that are not ASL? The comparison to spanish doesn't hold up becuse it's a single communication language whereas sign has many forms. I hope that makes sense.

rockdrummer

Interesting perspective. Perhaps that is because there are so many choices. With hearing you learn english. Deaf have many choices. Perhaps there are to many choices which lead to the lack of good core language.

flip

It's really just two choices? One beeing variants of visual/auditory english, and the another is ASL. But I agree it is many different brands of speech/oralism, like cued speech, SEE, AVT and so on. It is maybe that you are thinking about?

shel90

That's why I don't understand for all these choices. We know that it has been proven that deaf children from deaf families can do well as hearing children from hearing families so why not use what worked for them? I honestly believe the Bi-BI approach is the best.

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~Shel~

"A child educated only at school is an uneducated child." -George Santayana

shel90

No, the majority of the people who r involved with the deaf community won't reject people who use other forms of signs. I haven't seen anyone using CS or SEE at deaf socials because both r used for educational purposes. Iam not sure what r u looking for.

I only say that if someone says they refuse to learn ANY signs, then yea most likely the person will get rejected.

Spanish is one language
English is one language
ASL is one language

The other forms r tools so what do u mean that sign comes in different forms?

Yes, there is French Sighn language, Spanish Sign language, and many more and they r languages separate from ASL just like spoken French, Spanish are separate from English.

If u say that signs have different forms then we can say English has different forms cuz SEE is English being made into the visual mode.

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~Shel~

"A child educated only at school is an uneducated child." -George Santayana

jillio

Exactly, they miss out on peripheral information, such as that which is overheard from other conversations, and that is a huge part of the language acquisition process for hearing kids.

jillio

Exactly. Signed English is still English, PSE uses ASL signs, but English grammar and syntax, and that is what qualifies it as a pidgeon language, and ASL is American sign language, not a signed equivilent to English, even though it can be interpreted into English.

jillio

rockdrummer

I guess a simple yes or no is what I was looking for. The question was when you said were you referring to ASL? To me that was a simple yes or no question. It sound's like the answer is no and honestly a simple no would have sufficed. Don't always feel like you have to justify your position with me. You don't. In fact, in doing so you are complicating the issue far more than it needs to be for my purpose. If I need elaboration I will ask. But thank you nevertheless.

Boult

pidgin not pidgeon

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Boult

shel already said "Nope" in #217 *shrug*

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jillio

Now define it for me, please.

Boult

why don't you check your dictionary and you will find that you mispelled yours own. I was merely correcting your spelling.

PSE = Pidgin Sign English = a sign language in middle of spectrum from ASL to English which I am more fluent in than ASL. ( I likes to sign in english order)

pidgin - Definitions from Dictionary.com

Have a nice night!

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flip

At dictionary.com we read:

1. an auxiliary language that has come into existence through the attempts by the speakers of two different languages to communicate and that is primarily a simplified form of one of the languages, with a reduced vocabulary and grammatical structure and considerable variation in pronunciation.
2. (loosely) any simplified or broken form of a language, esp. when used for communication between speakers of different languages.

I would never be satisified relying on a broken form of a language, but guess we all are different.

jillio

Goody job Flip! You get the A for today because you have correctly defined a pidgin language. I'm glad someone understands that a pidgin is a diluted form of the languages it draws on.

rockdrummer

Boult, you are correct but based on her additional comments it seemed to me that she was not clear on my meaning.