rick48

If you re-read the posts you will see that I requested the information for those parents who may have a child in a program or are considering the programs you referenced but did not name. As my child is already in college, the information is of no use to me personally but would help others. So, consider the following advice, "[i]f you spent more time actually attempting to comprewhend the issues, and less trying to refute everything I say based on the fact that it is me who is saying it, you'd be much better off."
Rick

Deafness

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shel90

About 8 years ago, that happened a lot but these days I dont see it happening as much before probably because there are more hearing people taking ASL classes and more and more oral deaf people wanting to learn sign so I think the community has changed some with these kinds of attitudes. I think more and more people are more accepting. I can only think of 2 reasons why deaf people would reject people...if the person say that they have no interest in learning sign language or the deaf people themselves are so against any people who didnt grow up culturally Deaf.

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rockdrummer

Isn't it not just learning sign language but more specifically ASL?

shel90

Can u rephrase that..I am not sure what u are really asking..thanks.

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deafdyke

EXCELLENT point! Very few dhh oral kids can really have 100% access to spoken English. They still have a very rudimentary language, and don't get the meat and potatos of English.

rockdrummer

You said What I am asking is if you mean ASL when you say sign language.

shel90

Nope.

we know that it is unrealistic to expect people bwho learn sign language late to become fluent in ASL immediately. It takes about 2 to 5 years depending on the indivoidual. Iam saying that if people refuse to even try saying that they don't need it, that is going to be a reason for the rejection from the deaf community. I mean...everyone who has been involved with the deaf community has always shown an interest in learning sign language and they say they hope to become fluent in ASL.

It would be like going to Mexico and wanting to live there but refuse to learn Spanish cuz it is not needed. I am sure that would be taken as an insult by the Mexicans living there. It is about respect..

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flip

Wise.. Agree that it is many reasons for rejection, and there are seldom good reasons to reject, but that is not the point here.

The point is that I think we are underestimating the amount of oralists that lacks good core language skills. Notice how many ex-oralists that are stuck with SEE, while complaining that their signing skills sucks? At the same time, interpreters learn ASL with far less contact with deaf people.

rockdrummer

Shel, it's not that simple just to say sign language. As you know there are many variations of sign. My question is do you think the deaf community would reject someone that knows other forms of sign that are not ASL? The comparison to spanish doesn't hold up becuse it's a single communication language whereas sign has many forms. I hope that makes sense.

rockdrummer

Interesting perspective. Perhaps that is because there are so many choices. With hearing you learn english. Deaf have many choices. Perhaps there are to many choices which lead to the lack of good core language.

flip

It's really just two choices? One beeing variants of visual/auditory english, and the another is ASL. But I agree it is many different brands of speech/oralism, like cued speech, SEE, AVT and so on. It is maybe that you are thinking about?

shel90

That's why I don't understand for all these choices. We know that it has been proven that deaf children from deaf families can do well as hearing children from hearing families so why not use what worked for them? I honestly believe the Bi-BI approach is the best.

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shel90

No, the majority of the people who r involved with the deaf community won't reject people who use other forms of signs. I haven't seen anyone using CS or SEE at deaf socials because both r used for educational purposes. Iam not sure what r u looking for.

I only say that if someone says they refuse to learn ANY signs, then yea most likely the person will get rejected.

Spanish is one language
English is one language
ASL is one language

The other forms r tools so what do u mean that sign comes in different forms?

Yes, there is French Sighn language, Spanish Sign language, and many more and they r languages separate from ASL just like spoken French, Spanish are separate from English.

If u say that signs have different forms then we can say English has different forms cuz SEE is English being made into the visual mode.

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jillio

Exactly, they miss out on peripheral information, such as that which is overheard from other conversations, and that is a huge part of the language acquisition process for hearing kids.

jillio

Exactly. Signed English is still English, PSE uses ASL signs, but English grammar and syntax, and that is what qualifies it as a pidgeon language, and ASL is American sign language, not a signed equivilent to English, even though it can be interpreted into English.

jillio

rockdrummer

I guess a simple yes or no is what I was looking for. The question was when you said were you referring to ASL? To me that was a simple yes or no question. It sound's like the answer is no and honestly a simple no would have sufficed. Don't always feel like you have to justify your position with me. You don't. In fact, in doing so you are complicating the issue far more than it needs to be for my purpose. If I need elaboration I will ask. But thank you nevertheless.

Boult

pidgin not pidgeon

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Boult

shel already said "Nope" in #217 *shrug*

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jillio

Now define it for me, please.

Boult

why don't you check your dictionary and you will find that you mispelled yours own. I was merely correcting your spelling.

PSE = Pidgin Sign English = a sign language in middle of spectrum from ASL to English which I am more fluent in than ASL. ( I likes to sign in english order)

pidgin - Definitions from Dictionary.com

Have a nice night!

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flip

At dictionary.com we read:

1. an auxiliary language that has come into existence through the attempts by the speakers of two different languages to communicate and that is primarily a simplified form of one of the languages, with a reduced vocabulary and grammatical structure and considerable variation in pronunciation.
2. (loosely) any simplified or broken form of a language, esp. when used for communication between speakers of different languages.

I would never be satisified relying on a broken form of a language, but guess we all are different.

jillio

Goody job Flip! You get the A for today because you have correctly defined a pidgin language. I'm glad someone understands that a pidgin is a diluted form of the languages it draws on.

rockdrummer

Boult, you are correct but based on her additional comments it seemed to me that she was not clear on my meaning.

shel90

My answer is no.

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shel90

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deafdyke

yeah, but isn't a pidgin basicly the beginning stages of a creole? A lot of languages started out as pidgins, but then evolved to creoles.

sr171soars

I don't know if I empathize so much language acquisition (but certainly a part of the process) as such but more along the lines of "general" knowledge of the day. Much of group interaction in the hearing world is "Have you heard/Did you know?" type of thing. I can remember it wasn't until I was in my early twenties that I felt that I could participate in the give and take of larger groups conversationly (all the while knowing that I was missing stuff). That was when I figured out it was the little things one hears that was just as important as the big things one hears. Once I had that, I was off and running.

I will admit this...without this crucial step, I would never have been as successful in the hearing world otherwise. It wasn't until much later in my life that I realized this fact and understood the tremendous barrier this poses for others who are deaf especially HOHers. Besides late deafened folks (they sort of don't count as they had benefits most of us never got), I can't say I have run into other HOHers that were really able to do this very well. What a depressing thought...

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jillio

No, pidgins develop between two cultures who have a need to communicate but do not understand the other language. Creole develops through culture contact, where understanding is present, but each culture incorporates facets of each other's languages. They are very similar processes, but not identical. A pidgin language remains a pidgin language, and a creole language remains a creole language. Of course, a creole could come into existence through a pidgin and a natural language contact.

Deborah

I think this thread began with that topic. For me, that just meant: communicate with your child at all times. The number one thing: LOVE them with all of your heart, and communicate that love as often as possible. My DD got hearing aids and I introduced beginning signs and talked to her. The result: she began to talk to me and soon we were having conversations with words (and the signs fell by the wayside).

Of all the parents I met through AVT, none seem to be forceful or militant about speech. Simply, we loved our kids and we communicated with them as much as possible. We were all hearing...I didn't know any deaf parents at the time...so we just spoke OUR language and hoped our children would understand. Of the people I know, their children DID understand...but if they hadn't, I think all of the people I know would have tried other options.

I'm just trying to explain the 24/7 thing: if you are hearing and have a child with a hearing loss, naturally you want your child to talk to you...why wouldn't a hearing parent want that, kwim? I can only speak for myself, but it worked for my daughter: she is NOT profoundly deaf, she has a LOT of residual hearing, and she LOVES to talk. So everything was a very natural process for her...not so for everyone, but OUR experience was OUR experience. I talked to her constantly in a loving manner...NEVER EVER making it a tough, forceful, always correcting kind of thing. I am sad for those who endured what seems to be torturous and painful "therapy sessions." For many, it is simply engaging in conversation...most people I know did it like I did...talked to their children with love and kindness.

My daughter(almost 13) and I now have a WONDERFUL relationship and we have awesome communication together. If she didn't become a "talker," I definitely would have developed communication with her in any way possible...the KEY is to communicate. If she couldn't learn "my language" then I would have learned hers. Now, she is interested in learning ASL, and we will learn together. Just another way to communicate with my beautiful daughter: speech, ASL, email, notes and letters, diaries and journals...sharing our thoughts and feelings with each other is the goal. I love being her mother!

BTW: I loved this quote:

Deaf children are people first, deaf second. They have the same socialization and emotional needs as any other child. They need acceptance, and self esteem, and the message that they are valuable, and their value is not dependent upon their ability to superficially appear to be something they are not. They need to develop their identity at an age appropriate time, and not when they are 25 or more years old. Without it, no other form of therapy or assistive devise will make any changes in the lives of these kids. Being able to speak, having a CI, using HA--none of it makes for a happy well adjusted adult when the focus is always on the deafness because then the focus is always on what is missing.


AMEN! The focus always has to be on the person they are, not on "what is missing." That goes for ALL children: love who they are, not who you WANT them to be. It devastates their self-esteem if you only focus on their shortcomings or faults. That doesn't help anyone!

Also, I agree that the social and emotional needs are extremely important. We are making major life changes in order to best meet those needs. They become MORE important during adolescence than they ever were in childhood. Checklist: language, check. literacy, check. learning, check. social/emotional needs, work in progress and hope to check this off soon. The goal: a well-rounded, socially adjusted young adult. I will do whatever I can as a parent to establish the proper environment for this, but it is completely up to her (and her peers) to make it happen. I will provide her the opportunities, but she has to take advantage of them. Wish us well!