shel90

That was one of the concerns brought up by the BOT ..if the hearing and deaf kids will form separate groups. So many concerns and ideas being thrown in the air. The open forum is May 2nd...hurrryyy!!!

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rick48

[QUOTE=jillio;758699]Next time I will diagram my sentences first if that makes you feel better.


If those are the standards by which you determine an "exceptional" child, then when you find any kid, deaf or hearing, who satisfies all of that criteria, you will truly have an exceptional child. I think I may have come across one or two such kids in my lifetime.

Those are certainly not the standards I set for either my deaf child or my hearing child, we just chose to give them the opportunities to be the best person they could be.

BTW how much money does an oral deaf teenager have to earn to be considered an economic success? I want my daughter to see if there are any summer CEO jobs still available. Heck, I want both my daughters to find those jobs or at least develop a start-up company that they can sell in a leveraged buy-out by Labor Day!

shel90

[QUOTE=rick48;758704]I have a deaf friend whose dream is to be an astronaut . I dont know what happened but he didnt get in some programs so now he is teaching something related to science at an university. He told me that he feels like he wasnt successful even though he has a great paying job and everything.

I dont know about salary..it depends on your daughter's definition of what salary range is considered economic success. Some people see earning a million dollars a year as a success while others see $40K as a success. For me, it is finding the job that I love and enjoy doing is also important. My aunt used to be a top mananger for a computer company..she made so much money but she was never home..always traveling so 5 years ago, she quit her job and is doing consulting. She paid the price cuz she missed out on her daughters' childhood. I am just rambling so dont mind me.

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Boult

but they are classified as Special Education and controlled by Dept of Special Education. Gallaudet is one of them.

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jillio

[QUOTE=rick48;758704]If you don't use the standards accepted by the majority poulation for measurment, pray tell, then, how do you measure success? Further, if you are not using standardized measures, then is your assessment valid? No need to diagram your sentences.. But if you are using your standards for grammar to assess your child's standards, then I question how much success she has experienced in acquisition of English skills.

shel90

We use the public school curriculm and we have to follow it...use the same books and everything. We just present them in a visual manner which is in signing as opposed to speaking. That's the only difference. We have special classes for deaf children with other special needs like MR, LD or whatever where the curriculm is modified but even they get the same concepts taught.

And your point is about special ed? What does the classification have to do with anything as long we the children are being taught with the same standards as the children in the public schools?

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jillio

[QUOTE=jillio;758699]Please reread my statement. To make it a bit simpler, if the standards for reading at a 12th grade level is A for a hearing child, when the deaf child is measured using that standard, then her score is equal to or better than that of her hearing peers and is deemed a success. Therefore, when the score is equal to or better than that of her hearing peers, she is considered to be an exception to the results normally found for orally educated deaf children. More often standards are lowered and scores are maniluplated to indicate success. In other words, the oral deaf child is not functioning as well or better than her hearing peers, she is simply being judged by lowered standards. This propogates the idea that the deaf child's abilites are not as high as the hearing child's because we must lower the standards to identify them as successful.

jillio

[QUOTE=shel90;758709]Yeah, I get what you are saying, but I was refering to the more objective standards that we have to use to determine if an oral deaf child and a hearing child the same age and the same grade from he same SES are functioning at exactly the same level. It may appear that they are on the surface, but testing reveals that they aren't, even though they may possess equal intelligence. And then there are the other variables that have to be taken into consideration. And to make it truly valid, we would ahve to look at longitudinal data to see if the difference continue at the same rate or get even greater with time.

Subjective satisfaction vs. objective satisfaction. There are those who have engaged in this discussion that seem to want concrete scientific explanations becasue they think if they keep questioning in a round about matter, they will find a mistake in the data.

jillio

Wrong! They aren't qualified as special education any more that a Black college is classified as special education.

rick48

[QUOTE=jillio;758716]I think if you re-read Shel's response, it is right on point. I do not measure success for either of my children against "standardized measures". I view it in terms of their respective abilities.

However, since you are using the "standards accepted by the majority population for measurment" pray tell answer my question and state what is the income level a teenager must earn to be determined an economic success? After all, it is one of the criteria you chose for determining whether an oral deaf child is an "exception" to the rule. You should know it.

Since my daughter is a Dean's list student in college, I guess she's doing ok, or at least she takes after my wife. You do not have to worry about her, she will do fine. BTW it should read "...has experienced in [the] acquisiton of English skills." So I hope you do not use yourself as the standard either.

rick48

[QUOTE=shel90;758709]Shel,

You are not rambling but making perfect sense.

shel90

Ok..I am seeing that in many of the parents' threads that their children are fine. What about those deaf children who couldnt pick up on spoken language and struggling in school especially in reading and writing? This issue has nothing to do with the cultural or medical model. It is just a plain sad fact.

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jillio

[QUOTE=rick48;758777]I don't worry about your daughter. I worry about the numerous deaf children who don't happen to have been given some of the advantages out there that your daughter has been given. And the problem with you measuring your child's success is that you are using subjective standards that cannot be generalized to an entire population of deaf kids. It is simply anecdotal evidence. When shel and I discuss reading levels and educational methods, we are basing our information on accepted research done with large samples, not one persons biased opinion. For you to hold your daughter's success up as the standard for all parents of all deaf children is simply egotistical. You ignore the fact that there are still problems in the education and the socilization of numerous deaf children not only in the US, but all over the world. The issue is much bigger than your own little back yard.

shel90

[QUOTE=jillio;758791]Exactly! By sharing my experiences personally and professionally, I am hoping I will reach out to parents so they can keep them in mind and gain some understanding of the issues their children may face. If your children dont have those issues..great but there are many more deaf people both children and adults with serious issues and I am here for them. I dont see many of you showing epathy for those who suffered. It is all about YOUR children and how well they are doing...GREAT but that doesnt mean the problem is gone (referring to what's happening out there).

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jillio

[QUOTE=shel90;758794]

rick48

"For you to hold your daughter's success up as the standard for all parents of all deaf children is simply egotistical."

You know, I am simply not going to let you post a lie and get away with it.

I have never, ever used my daughter as the standard for all parents of all deaf children and you know that. Why you need to lie about it is troubling. Please show me the post wherein I stated that she is the standard.

I know too well the time, effort and devotion that goes into raising a deaf child, especially one with a ci. I know too well that despite all that time, effort, devotion and love, results vary. I know too well that we have been blessed to have our daughter do as well as she has.

I have been involved in the ci community for nearly two decades and have spoken to many parents considering the ci, I have written articles and spoken at seminars and conventions and not once have I ever said to anyone that if you get a ci then this is what will happen and certainly never that your child will achieve the same success with her ci as my daughter has.

But yes, I have encountered people who say that a child with a ci cannot (fill in the blank, there are so many) and when appropriate have said that is not true because my daughter can or does.

I do not care if you insult my grammar, spelling or intelligence nor do I care that you need to label me as defensive or insecure in order to make your points. I am a big boy and I also consider the source. However, do not make things up about me and especially my daughter.

Boult

+1

and to give you idea of other thread that went ugly like this thread eh
Breaking the Code

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shel90

I read the thread that u provided in the link..I couldnt find anything ugly about it...just a debate about cued speech. what was your reason for bringing it up?

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deafskeptic

I think Boult is hinting that this thread could turn ugly.

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shel90

Oh ok...I hope it wont. I will do my best to refrain from insulting people.

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deafdyke

Amen! The thing is, that it's got this HUGE HUGE "disabilty" stigma.
Rick, the singlar of data isn't ancedote. Yes, there are kids who do really well orally, but I mean even many "sucesses" still have significent issues with functioning in the hearing world. (eg they still need speech therapy or special ed services, and many of them still have significent social issues)
There was that kid who spoken seven languages, back when the only option was relatively primative hearing aids. That doesn't mean that ALL kids will do as well.
And I mean......even a lot of kids who do semi decently orally, still are going to have signficent expressive speech issues. Whereas if they'd learned Sign, they could have expressed themselves on a Harvard level!

flip

Yes.. this is a big concern!

In fact, there are surveys, that shows us that oralists, wether it be deaf/hard of hearing/hearing aids/CI, are more prone to a jobless adulthood and serious psychological problems, compared to people connected to a sign language society.

I wonder if some parents not are aware of this fact? Some hard of hearing assocations even promote use of sign language because of this.

As I see, this is part of reason why many deaf/HOH people, don't get much impressed by speech development in deaf kids. That is often really more of a concern than relief, especially when not connected with other sign language users.

So parents seeking advice and acceptance for their early speech therapy at alldeaf.com, will seldom get more than polite applause from most deaf adults here for taking interest in their kids.

It seems like it is better to put you kids in a deaf school with lousy litteracy than goin mainstream and reading 3-4 books a year in 1st grade, considering those surveys. I do really understand how hard this choice can be. Many of us know why there are so low litteracy in some deaf schools among some students, and I hope we can clear out those things, so parents not get scared away into the fangs of oralists :-0

I would also like to see some scientifical papers that proves speech therapy is as powerful or more, as ASL for language and congnitive development. Anyone?

shel90

Both deaf and public schools have guaranteed 90 minute blocks for both language arts and math daily. Our students are required to read one on-level books independently and then retell them using their own words (ASL or spoken language for the CI students) once a day. I am sure the same goes for public schools. There are higher expectations for literacy skills now for all children whether deaf or hearing...so I dont know what u meant by lousy literacy? U mean the kids themselves that have lousy literacy skills or the deaf schools provide lousy literacy expectations?

Our problem is that many of the parents dont read to their children at home because they say they dont know sign language..we tell them it doesnt matter if their ASL are not perfect but as long as they sit down with their child and get a book out together. Some do and some dont...cant win them all I guess?
Public schools have the same problem with parents too...u see inner city schools having lower literacy skills so..I dont see why people have a tendacy to blame deaf schools for everything. Makes me

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flip

Sorry for upsetting you and beeing unclear, my mistake.

With "lousy", I mean the prejudices you mentions. I tried to write like a parent relying on speech programs.

It's silly how some parents expect the schools to bring their kids up to par with other average kids, while they do nothing at home, not even language interaction, speech or sign language. It's something wrong when I have to explain deaf kids what happens at home, as their parents do not even know basic sign langauge!

And like you say, deaf schools gets wrongly blamed for mistakes done other places, and this can lead parents to rely much more on speech programs.

Hope I was more clear this time. Keep up your great work, Shel.

rick48

Boult,

Thanks,
Rick

deafdyke

Exactly!!!! I mean the pro oral folks tend to push Sign as a "crutch"........but in this day and age of out of control heath care costs, its now the oral deaf kids who are technology dependant, and can't function without technology. Someone who's bilingal in both ASL and speech CAN function without expensive technology!
And the serious pschological problems...........YES, I mean we have high rates of depression, and drug and alchohol abuse!

shel90

Speaking of alchohol abuse, when I was in high school, I felt that I needed to get at least a good buzz from alcohol at high school parties. I was usually making so many rounds to the beer key. My friends didn't drink at every party and they asked me why I needed to drink at every party we went to. I didn't know why but after my therapy seesions 10 years later, I came to the realization I was using alcohol to help me feel comfortable in large crowds and not worry abouit nobody understanding me nor me understanding them. I was lucky I didn't become a full-fledged aloholic by the time I graduated from high school. Luckily, in my senior year I made friends with this great group and they treated me no differently so I didn't drink at all during my senior year..well maybe prom and graduation. LOL!

Never touched drugs cuz I was tooo scared of them. Whew!

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shel90

Speaking of alchohol abuse, when I was in high school, I felt that I needed to get at least a good buzz from alcohol at high school parties. I was usually making so many rounds to the beer key. My friends didn't drink at every party and they asked me why I needed to drink at every party we went to. I didn't know why but after my therapy seesions 10 years later, I came to the realization I was using alcohol to help me feel comfortable in large crowds and not worry abouit nobody understanding me nor me understanding them. I was lucky I didn't become a full-fledged aloholic by the time I graduated from high school. Luckily, in my senior year I made friends with this great group and they treated me no differently so I didn't drink at all during my senior year..well maybe prom and graduation. LOL!

Never touched drugs cuz I was tooo scared of them. Whew!

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Endymion

That reminds me. The difference between academic reputation for Howard University (#88 on US News list of top national universities) and Gallaudet has always bugged me. It'd be nice if Gallaudet could build the academic mettle to make it to Howard's level for undergraduate education.

I'll hope for that.

jillio

Research point to the opposite conclusion, as does the steady decline in lieracy rates following the influx of oral attitudes into education for deaf children.