Auditory-verbal therapy research claims - Page 2

Endymion · 04-09-2007, 09:28 PM

*nods* And it sucks that it's that way. I think about all the smart deaf people I know who can do so much, but are limited by the perceptions of other people about their English.

The marketer in me is wondering how that could be tackled!

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Well if u compare any deaf children to hearing children when it comes to reading and writing, it will always be the deaf children that have more difficulty. I mean..think about it..hearing children have access to English whether it is directly or indirectly just from the simple fact they hear it around them so the ability to decode English is there while deaf children dont have that ability. Makes sense that deaf children despite what approaches are used to teach them develop literacy skills will have to work harder at their reading and writing skills.

shel90 · 04-09-2007, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endymion

*nods* And it sucks that it's that way. I think about all the smart deaf people I know who can do so much, but are limited by the perceptions of other people about their English.

The marketer in me is wondering how that could be tackled!

If u come up with something, let me know! Yea, I used to think that deaf people with poor English skills were not so smart until I learned ASL and then started interacting with them. I was floored by how intelligent many of them were despite their inability to show it through their writings.

Your and Jillo's writing style is the kind I would love to achieve someday. I can understand the message you both are conveying but I cant express my thoughts to that level of writing. Know what I mean? I try to write using a lot of terminology but it just never comes out right. Oh well...

sr171soars · 04-09-2007, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

No, the processing is not as easy adapted. There is a reason for the increase in spelling accuracy. When we (hearing or deaf) recognize a printed word, we do not recognize it (once it has become familiar) as composed of individual letters, but rather as a pattern formed by those letters. Individuals who are visually /spatially oriented recognize inconsistencies in the pattern. For instance, I am hearing, but if I see a misspelled word in a newspaper or book, it jumps out at me. I then have to go through the process of breaking it down letter by letter to know exactly what is wrong. Initiallly, I only know that the pattern formed by the letters is incorrect. Deaf individuals are very adept at pattern recognition. Even fingerspelling forms more of a fluid pattern than a breakdown in individual letter composition. Therefore, spelling is a skill consistent with a visual/spatial cognitive processing. Grammar, however, is so inconsistent as to form no recognizable patterns in the way that individually spelled words do. Written grammar has to be changed into an auditory form often times before errors are recognized. We've all heard people say, "That doesn't sound right." when referring to an incorrectly structured sentence. But you do not hear "That doesn't look right." in reference to grammar--only to spelling.

Hope I haven't given you more info that you wanted--but you seem to be interested in the cognitive impact of language differences. The educational implications are so complicated and include so much more than an inability to hear sound, or the innane idea of manually coded English systems to increase literacy.

Very nice explanation on the grammer bit. I can recall how that flummoxed me for the longest time until I got the "hang" of it in my early 20's. Most of the time you are correct one must sound it out to catch those types of errors. I often find them reading but I will either sound them out or rewrite the sentence in different ways to make sure.

sr171soars · 04-09-2007, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Endymion

*nods* And it sucks that it's that way. I think about all the smart deaf people I know who can do so much, but are limited by the perceptions of other people about their English.

The marketer in me is wondering how that could be tackled!

This problem is not exclusive to deaf people. Anybody with poor English skills are subject to that kind of perception by others. I guess first impressions will always be important regardless whether deserved or not.

kayla123 · 04-09-2007, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Well if u compare any deaf children to hearing children when it comes to reading and writing, it will always be the deaf children that have more difficulty. I mean..think about it..hearing children have access to English whether it is directly or indirectly just from the simple fact they hear it around them so the ability to decode English is there while deaf children dont have that ability. Makes sense that deaf children despite what approaches are used to teach them develop literacy skills will have to work harder at their reading and writing skills.

That's not always the case Shel. I am a volunteer at my daughters school and that was not the case at all. When the kids started blending words together and reading and writing sentences, i thought Kayla would have a harder time then some of the other kids. She is one of the top readers in her class. Her teacher and i are so proud of her. She is very determined and always has been.

rick48 · 04-09-2007, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kayla123

My daughter actually enjoys her AV therapy.She only sees her therapist once a week, but she enjoys her lessons at home as well. There are so many times where she pulls out the therapy games and comes to me and wants to play what she calls the "listening games".Even in an informal setting when she dose'nt pronounce something right and i correct her, she is very eager to learn to say it the right way. I really think it's the way you go about doing it, like to her it's playing games rather than a speech lesson. I don't know how speech lessons were years ago but when i am giving her speech lessons, we are playing bingo, board games or barbies or whatever. You don't have to be a drill sargeant about it, just make it fun.

Kayla,

You are so right! When they talk about 24/7 it should not be taken literally but meant to incorporate what is being currently stressed in actual therapy into the normal routine of your child's life.

My daughter loved playing barbies and so my wife and her would sit and play for hours-all the while she was getting a speech and language lesson and had no idea but she had a great time! Same thing when they would go to the beach in the summer and talked about the sand, the water, the seagulls etc. There is nothing wrong with spending time talking to your children!
Rick

jillio · 04-10-2007, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr171soars

Very nice explanation on the grammer bit. I can recall how that flummoxed me for the longest time until I got the "hang" of it in my early 20's. Most of the time you are correct one must sound it out to catch those types of errors. I often find them reading but I will either sound them out or rewrite the sentence in different ways to make sure.

Thanks!

jillio · 04-10-2007, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kayla123

That's not always the case Shel. I am a volunteer at my daughters school and that was not the case at all. When the kids started blending words together and reading and writing sentences, i thought Kayla would have a harder time then some of the other kids. She is one of the top readers in her class. Her teacher and i are so proud of her. She is very determined and always has been.

There will always be exceptions to the rule. Shel is speaking about the majority of deaf students. And the fact that she is determined plays out in her favor. A determined child is willing to tackle that which is difficult. Doesn't make the task less difficult, just means that the child is more intrinsically motivated.

shel90 · 04-10-2007, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

There will always be exceptions to the rule. Shel is speaking about the majority of deaf students. And the fact that she is determined plays out in her favor. A determined child is willing to tackle that which is difficult. Doesn't make the task less difficult, just means that the child is more intrinsically motivated.

Thank u, Jillo. That's the problem I faced growing up with people making assumptions that due to my success with oral language, it will work for all deaf/hoh children. I know very well that is a very wrong assumption and I learned that at a young age when the same approach that worked for me didn't work for my deaf brother. Mind u, we both have 120 dB bilaretal hearing loss. I get so tired of people using me as an example or as a poster child for oral prgrams cuz I was an exception. Also, people forgot to include socio-emotional factors. I grew up with so mch emotional baggage from all the expectations put on me that I needed therapy to help me accept my deafness and the fact that I will never become hearing. Also, I needed ASL growing up and it angers me that I was denied it. I am so glad that I learned it.

jillio · 04-10-2007, 01:33 PM

Welcome! We always seem to be on the same page with the educational issues, and the fact that there are many, many variables involved that detrmine success.

shel90 · 04-10-2007, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kayla123

That's not always the case Shel. I am a volunteer at my daughters school and that was not the case at all. When the kids started blending words together and reading and writing sentences, i thought Kayla would have a harder time then some of the other kids. She is one of the top readers in her class. Her teacher and i are so proud of her. She is very determined and always has been.

Ok..that's good for her. I was always one of the top readers in my class growing up too. Doesnt mean that I didnt need ASL..looking back, I could have learned a lot more than just "reading" if I had ASL. One example would be the skill of debating or researching. I struggled with those because I never could hear and learn from my hearing peers whenever we had a class debate or discussion about research. I learned all that at Gallaudet with ASL. Yes, reading is important but if that is all your child can do, it could hard when she is older and required to accomplish other skills. I am speaking of the large deaf/hoh population and studies showed that a high percentage of them struggle with literacy skills. Pls dont compare your daughter to a general population like people did with me. They compared me or used me as a justification for their approach and it put too much pressure on me.

U decide whatever approach u feel best for your daughter..all I am asking u to keep the other issues in mind especially when she gets older.

shel90 · 04-10-2007, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Welcome! We always seem to be on the same page with the educational issues, and the fact that there are many, many variables involved that detrmine success.

Yea, I know!

Before going to grad school at Gallaudet, I used to think opposite or think "one size fits all" but I had great professors and great classes that really opened my eyes to a lot of issues. It was like a "wake-up" call for me.

jillio · 04-10-2007, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Yea, I know!

Before going to grad school at Gallaudet, I used to think opposite or think "one size fits all" but I had great professors and great classes that really opened my eyes to a lot of issues. It was like a "wake-up" call for me.

We've both had our wake up call! I think that's why we keep trying to make others aware of the things they maybe haven't considered.

samantha kennel · 04-10-2007, 02:29 PM

thanks Boult for the av comments my son attends university of Akron and I know Carol Fletcher personally my son also has Dr.Denise Wray.THey are amazing professors and DRs.He has thrived so much through av theropy he only attends once a week.for one hour a week the rest is up to us as parentsa to implament it in teh house.I do not over theropy my child but he does need theropy . he is now only 3 months behind in speech. I can only praise the University of Akron!!!!

shel90 · 04-10-2007, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

We've both had our wake up call! I think that's why we keep trying to make others aware of the things they maybe haven't considered.

Yea, but it seems like they either dont get it or dont want to and there could be more deaf kids out there suffering. I dont want to judge anyone about it but u have a deaf son who thrived on ASL and I am deaf who grew up with the oral-only approach and it feels like many of them dont really want to take what we have to say seriously. We both had years of years of experience personally and professionally with the issues of deaf education. They are just starting out..

To emphasize..I said many so I am not talking about ALL parents here..ok?

shel90 · 04-10-2007, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Ok..that's good for her. I was always one of the top readers in my class growing up too. Doesnt mean that I didnt need ASL..looking back, I could have learned a lot more than just "reading" if I had ASL. One example would be the skill of debating or researching. I struggled with those because I never could hear and learn from my hearing peers whenever we had a class debate or discussion about research. I learned all that at Gallaudet with ASL. Yes, reading is important but if that is all your child can do, it could hard when she is older and required to accomplish other skills. I am speaking of the large deaf/hoh population and studies showed that a high percentage of them struggle with literacy skills. Pls dont compare your daughter to a general population like people did with me. They compared me or used me as a justification for their approach and it put too much pressure on me.

U decide whatever approach u feel best for your daughter..all I am asking u to keep the other issues in mind especially when she gets older.

I dont think that sentence looks right...it didnt come out the way I intented it to be...let me see if I can put it a better way...

I meant to say that yes, there are deaf people who do fine with reading using the auditory-therapy approach but many deaf children dont and by the time the specialists or parents realize that, a lot of years of language development is lost and the children themselves are the one who will have to end up even working MUCH harder to develop reading and writing skills.

Your daughter does have to work harder to acquire reading skills cuz she doenst have the hearing to catch everything being said in her environment. Maybe it is NOT much harder but harder, regardless. That's why deaf children go to speech therapy so from my own personal experience, speech therapy is a LOT of work as opposed to hearing kids being able to hear the language around without naturally. Deaf children have to work harder..if not, then there would be no need for speech therapy, hmm?

Everything else I said in my quoted post was said correctly so it still stands.

jillio · 04-10-2007, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

Yea, but it seems like they either dont get it or dont want to and there could be more deaf kids out there suffering. I dont want to judge anyone about it but u have a deaf son who thrived on ASL and I am deaf who grew up with the oral-only approach and it feels like many of them dont really want to take what we have to say seriously. We both had years of years of experience personally and professionally with the issues of deaf education. They are just starting out..

To emphasize..I said many so I am not talking about ALL parents here..ok?

That's why I think that it all comes down to a lack of acceptance of their child as deaf most of the time. If they fully accepted their child as a deaf individual, they would understand as well that the people who can offer the most guidance are those that have been there. I know that the guidance I received from deaf adults made me aware of so many things that the so called professionals never even considered, because the professional approach was from a hearing perspective. The professionals generally offer advise on how to correct the lack of auditory function or use of oral language. The Deaf community teaches one how to live a full, productive, and satisfying life without hearing and often times without speaking. Hearing professionals see something missing in that life, Deaf people teach that it is just as satisfying and productive as a life with hearing. I pesonally believe that any parent who holds on to the idea that their child will be the one exception to the rule is still denying their child's deafness. Once one has accepted their child's deafness, there is no need to make them the exception, because they are already equal (even if different) to their hearing peers. Acceptance means that you don't have to make your child whole by giving them a semblance to something that they are missing--they are already whole. Personally, I think it is a much more valuable skill to learn to live with one's deafness in a way that the deafness does not limit their possibilities. And you and I both have had the experiences that let us know that one can id as Deaf, and still be success and productive. Its not the deafness that is impairing our young children. Its the coping skills they are being taught that place the limits on them. I find it very, very sad because it is the child who suffers as a result. Not bad enough that they have to learn to live as a deaf person in a majority hearing world, but then we disable them further by not allowing them to learn to do that in a way that is most natural for them. The message being given is, "Its okay to be deaf--but its better to be hearing." What kind of a message is that to give a child?

Sorry--got on my soapbox again!

shel90 · 04-10-2007, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

That's why I think that it all comes down to a lack of acceptance of their child as deaf most of the time. If they fully accepted their child as a deaf individual, they would understand as well that the people who can offer the most guidance are those that have been there. I know that the guidance I received from deaf adults made me aware of so many things that the so called professionals never even considered, because the professional approach was from a hearing perspective. The professionals generally offer advise on how to correct the lack of auditory function or use of oral language. The Deaf community teaches one how to live a full, productive, and satisfying life without hearing and often times without speaking. Hearing professionals see something missing in that life, Deaf people teach that it is just as satisfying and productive as a life with hearing. I pesonally believe that any parent who holds on to the idea that their child will be the one exception to the rule is still denying their child's deafness. Once one has accepted their child's deafness, there is no need to make them the exception, because they are already equal (even if different) to their hearing peers. Acceptance means that you don't have to make your child whole by giving them a semblance to something that they are missing--they are already whole. Personally, I think it is a much more valuable skill to learn to live with one's deafness in a way that the deafness does not limit their possibilities. And you and I both have had the experiences that let us know that one can id as Deaf, and still be success and productive. Its not the deafness that is impairing our young children. Its the coping skills they are being taught that place the limits on them. I find it very, very sad because it is the child who suffers as a result. Not bad enough that they have to learn to live as a deaf person in a majority hearing world, but then we disable them further by not allowing them to learn to do that in a way that is most natural for them. The message being given is, "Its okay to be deaf--but its better to be hearing." What kind of a message is that to give a child?
Sorry--got on my soapbox again!

That was the message I grew up with which is why I had all these emotional issues even though I did well academically. Socially and emotionally, I was a mess..big time mess cuz I was so jealous of my hearing peers of being able to hear and becoming very depressed about not being able to keep up in conversations, understand what was being said in class, participating in class discussion, giving out speeches on reports only to have my class laugh at me cuz my speech wasnt so perfect, not being able to talk on the phone like my friends could, getting reprimanded by teachers for not being able to follow what they are saying hence getting marks on my report cards as having problems with daydreaming, bieng the last one to know what is going on, having people getting impatient with me for not understanding them the first time...the list goes on and on. Too much stress dealing with all those issues only because the specialist told my mom that I didnt need ASL.

I have spent so many nights crying because it seemed that everyone around me was happier than me all because they can hear and I cant.

I asked my deaf brother, who went to a deaf school since he was 5, if he had to deal with any of those issues I listed above and he looked at me like "I have no idea what u are talking about." He had no concept of what it was like cuz he grew up with people like him and grew up with ASL and having full access to language and discussions in his classes. The only issue he struggled with was learning how to read and write appropriately and I dont hold his school at fault for it. I hold the fact that he lost out on a full language development during his first 5 years trying to learn how to communicate using spoken English at fault. Why do I blame it? He couldnt pick up on oral language. Because he was doing so badly in his kindergarten class at the school I went to with, his IEP team had to refer him to the deaf school. That was the BEST thing any specialist did for him. He told me that he loved going to school because he was bored at home due to nobody knowing sign language. On the other hand, I hated going to school so I would play sick so many times. Go figure.

No wonder I want little to do with the non-signing world.

I was going to ask u "Have these professionals ever lived with what it is like to be deaf or have deaf relatives, especially children?" Then I was gonna ask...why do many parents listen to them more than to the people who actually experienced it personally? U already answered it.

jillio · 04-10-2007, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

That was the message I grew up with which is why I had all these emotional issues even though I did well academically. Socially and emotionally, I was a mess..big time mess cuz I was so jealous of my hearing peers of being able to hear and becoming very depressed about not being able to keep up in conversations, understand what was being said in class, participating in class discussion, giving out speeches on reports only to have my class laugh at me cuz my speech wasnt so perfect, not being able to talk on the phone like my friends could, getting reprimanded by teachers for not being able to follow what they are saying hence getting marks on my report cards as having problems with daydreaming, bieng the last one to know what is going on, having people getting impatient with me for not understanding them the first time...the list goes on and on. Too much stress dealing with all those issues only because the specialist told my mom that I didnt need ASL.

I have spent so many nights crying because it seemed that everyone around me was happier than me all because they can hear and I cant.

I asked my deaf brother, who went to a deaf school since he was 5, if he had to deal with any of those issues I listed above and he looked at me like "I have no idea what u are talking about." He had no concept of what it was like cuz he grew up with people like him and grew up with ASL and having full access to language and discussions in his classes. The only issue he struggled with was learning how to read and write appropriately and I dont hold his school at fault for it. I hold the fact that he lost out on a full language development during his first 5 years trying to learn how to communicate using spoken English at fault. Why do I blame it? He couldnt pick up on oral language. Because he was doing so badly in his kindergarten class at the school I went to with, his IEP team had to refer him to the deaf school. That was the BEST thing any specialist did for him. He told me that he loved going to school because he was bored at home due to nobody knowing sign language. On the other hand, I hated going to school so I would play sick so many times. Go figure.

No wonder I want little to do with the non-signing world.

I was going to ask u "Have these professionals ever lived with what it is like to be deaf or have deaf relatives, especially children?" Then I was gonna ask...why do many parents listen to them more than to the people who actually experienced it personally? U already answered it.

To have lived through that, and turn it into a positive where you are helping deaf kids so they don't have to go through what you did makes you a very special, very strong person!

deafdyke · 04-10-2007, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Also, people forgot to include socio-emotional factors. I grew up with so mch emotional baggage from all the expectations put on me that I needed therapy to help me accept my deafness and the fact that I will never become hearing.

AMEN!!!!! That's exactly what I've been trying to articualte to parents of "oral" only kids. Even many "superstars" have HUGE social emotional baggage. I mean oral only skills do not totally equalize a dhh kid at ALL!
Like, how the heck can kids develop good self esteem when they are CONSTANTLY being corrected on their speech? How can they develop good self esteem when people think we're MR b/c of the quality of their voice? I STILL get that, and I got 660 on the Verbal SATs. How can we develop good self esteem when we're being yelled at b/c we can't hear to modulate our voice? I STILL get that.......how the heck can we develop good self esteem when we're being teased about our voices? Oral only DOES NOT and CAN NOT totally equalize dhh kids. Sure, there are some standouts.....but overall, hoh kids' acheievement levels are STILL relatively low! We have very high rates of drug and alchohl abuse. (people who abuse to "deaden the pain of not fitting in 100%)
Samantha Kennel, please do listen to us. Many of us were "sucessful" oralists just like your son. Nobody here's bashing oral skills........we're just asking why the development of oral skills, comes at such a high cost. Even many if not most of the "superstars" have HUGE HUGE interpersonal relationship issues.
I remember going to a Hoh kids conference. Two of the kids (actually oral deaf) were stereotypical academic superstars. One of them wanted to go to an Ivy League College, and the other wanted to be a lawyer. Both of them had HUGE interpersonal issues. That's usually the #1 issue facing oral dhh kids....socialization and emotional issues.
Please.......many of our parents say they wish they'd learned Sign earlier as well. You don't want to look back and think "I should have listened to those adults. I should have learned Sign along with speech."
You can add Sign on an enrichment basis....who knows? Maybe he could perform at supergenius levels with Sign.

shel90 · 04-10-2007, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafdyke

AMEN!!!!! That's exactly what I've been trying to articualte to parents of "oral" only kids. Even many "superstars" have HUGE social emotional baggage. I mean oral only skills do not totally equalize a dhh kid at ALL!
Like, how the heck can kids develop good self esteem when they are CONSTANTLY being corrected on their speech? How can they develop good self esteem when people think we're MR b/c of the quality of their voice? I STILL get that, and I got 660 on the Verbal SATs. How can we develop good self esteem when we're being yelled at b/c we can't hear to modulate our voice? I STILL get that.......how the heck can we develop good self esteem when we're being teased about our voices? Oral only DOES NOT and CAN NOT totally equalize dhh kids. Sure, there are some standouts.....but overall, hoh kids' acheievement levels are STILL relatively low! We have very high rates of drug and alchohl abuse. (people who abuse to "deaden the pain of not fitting in 100%)
Samantha Kennel, please do listen to us. Many of us were "sucessful" oralists just like your son. Nobody here's bashing oral skills........we're just asking why the development of oral skills, comes at such a high cost. Even many if not most of the "superstars" have HUGE HUGE interpersonal relationship issues.
I remember going to a Hoh kids conference. Two of the kids (actually oral deaf) were stereotypical academic superstars. One of them wanted to go to an Ivy League College, and the other wanted to be a lawyer. Both of them had HUGE interpersonal issues. That's usually the #1 issue facing oral dhh kids....socialization and emotional issues.
Please.......many of our parents say they wish they'd learned Sign earlier as well. You don't want to look back and think "I should have listened to those adults. I should have learned Sign along with speech."
You can add Sign on an enrichment basis....who knows? Maybe he could perform at supergenius levels with Sign.

I told my mom about this site and about many parents of deaf kids registering here. U know what my mom said? She told me to pls tell them not to be stupid like she was with her decision of banning signing for me.

04-10-2007, 02:29 PM	#44 (permalink)
samantha kennel Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 45	thanks Boult thanks Boult for the av comments my son attends university of Akron and I know Carol Fletcher personally my son also has Dr.Denise Wray.THey are amazing professors and DRs.He has thrived so much through av theropy he only attends once a week.for one hour a week the rest is up to us as parentsa to implament it in teh house.I do not over theropy my child but he does need theropy . he is now only 3 months behind in speech. I can only praise the University of Akron!!!!

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04-10-2007, 01:33 PM	#40 (permalink)
jillio Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,163	Welcome! We always seem to be on the same page with the educational issues, and the fact that there are many, many variables involved that detrmine success.