Learning pace of Deaf vs. Hearing kids - Page 3

jillio · 02-16-2007, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

The problem is people keep coming up with different theories or approaches on how to teach deaf children.

Yeah, hearing people. Deaf people keep saying the same thing over and over, and no one is listening!

***VamPyroX*** · 02-16-2007, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr171soars

*Shakes my head*

It is as if the educational system doesn't believe those that are deaf can learn anything... I was mainstreamed and I wasn't given any "slack" so to speak. In other words, I had a set of expectations to meet and I did that and more. Of course, being in a mainstreamed situation sort of "lumps" you with the hearing.

As for deaf schools, it really boggles my mind that in general (not all deaf schools are like this) they don't expect much from the deaf kids. What a waste... No wonder many have so much trouble in the real world after they leave school.

Let's not forget the "No Child Left Behind Act" that our wonderful President Bush did for us...

jillio · 02-16-2007, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VamPyroX

Let's not forget the "No Child Left Behind Act" that our wonderful President Bush did for us...

Oh, yeah! No Child Left Behind my ass!

***VamPyroX*** · 02-16-2007, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Oh, yeah! No Child Left Behind my ass!

I think that the reason why deaf kids have it easy in school is because the parents and teacher assume that the kids don't have the potential to be as good as everyone else.

Now, that has been proven wrong since there's a huge increase in oral and hard-of-hearing students here at RIT.

Yet, I still don't know the percentage of kids who graduate high school at whatever level they are at.

shel90 · 02-16-2007, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

I definately think that there should be different testing procedures for deaf kids. Any test designed for hearing participants will be negatively biased against deaf individuals because the tests designed for hearing are very verbally based.

It is still a problem, in my opinion, because the policy makers are hearing. When the Deaf population is consulted, the methods they suggest are extremely effective. Unfortunately, our educational system consists of hearing educators who want to tell the Deaf what they need, rather than listening to what they say they need. The perspective is skewed from a hearing point of view. Research has already shown that when ASL is used to teach English skill, literacy rates improve. Deaf of Deaf (native signers) have the highest literacy rates overall because of consistent early language input, and the use of ASL to teach English as a second language. Despite all of the research that points to the most viable solutions, hearing policy makers continue to insist that hearing educators know more about what deaf students need than the Deaf themselvves do.

and that makes me

I am thinking of getting a job with the Dept of Ed as a policymaker in about 5 to 10 years...I have only been teaching for 5 years so I just need more experience.

rockdrummer · 02-17-2007, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Wasn't finished, I guess

To fix it: ADVOCATE, ADVOCATE, ADVOCATE

This sounds like its been a problem for quite some time. You say that nobody is listening to what the deaf community is saying about their needs and you also say that despite studies that prove a given method works better, the hearing educators don't do anything. Will advocating really help?

After reading what folks are saying here it sounds like its a hopless case. Do you mean to tell me that nobody is advocating given all of these problems you mention. Or nothing is being done even though folks are advocates? Is this truly a hopless case? Deafness has been around for ever. I am a parent of a deaf child that is learning at a very slow pace and I have to tell you in all honesty, the things you say concern me deeply. They also paint a picture of no hope. I as a hearing parent with a hearing perspective would not even know where to start in figuring out the best methods to educate a deaf child. I don't even know how many methods there are let alone which to choose. I would hope that the people that know what is best would be the advocates. In my view that would be the elders in the deaf community.

sr171soars · 02-17-2007, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Oh, yeah! No Child Left Behind my ass!

Vampy and Jillio...

Just remember good intentions often don't work out the way it was anticipated. Nothing new under the sun. It is one thing to say what would work but it is a totally different thing to make it work. All the links throughout society have to be in place and our society is missing a bunch of links. Blaming the person at top or near the top is the easy way out. It all really comes down to the priorities of all the people involved not just the policymakers. With everybody going in different directions and no consistent and agreed principles...it is a wonder anything gets done at all.

shel90 · 02-17-2007, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

This sounds like its been a problem for quite some time. You say that nobody is listening to what the deaf community is saying about their needs and you also say that despite studies that prove a given method works better, the hearing educators don't do anything. Will advocating really help?

After reading what folks are saying here it sounds like its a hopless case. Do you mean to tell me that nobody is advocating given all of these problems you mention. Or nothing is being done even though folks are advocates? Is this truly a hopless case? Deafness has been around for ever. I am a parent of a deaf child that is learning at a very slow pace and I have to tell you in all honesty, the things you say concern me deeply. They also paint a picture of no hope. I as a hearing parent with a hearing perspective would not even know where to start in figuring out the best methods to educate a deaf child. I don't even know how many methods there are let alone which to choose. I would hope that the people that know what is best would be the advocates. In my view that would be the elders in the deaf community.

yes there is hope..important u and your family give him full language access both in the air and in print. If u are already doing that and your son is getting that at school too then maybe that is how he learns. Maybe it has nothing to do with his deafness? Every child has their own way of learning so important find out his learning styles or needs and meet them.

What about labeling everything in your house with words? Reading to him every night wont hurt. Fingerspelling the word first, then signing it, and then fingerspelling it again is one way to bridge sign language with written language. To summarize it...exposure exposure..take him out to different places, maybe bring index cards and write the words of the things at the different places u go.

I honestly wish I knew how I learned but according to my mom, I was very motivated when it came to language but my deaf brother wasnt so his learning pace was slower than mine but he turned out fine. He has a college degree and a good job. My mom did the same thing to me as she did for my brother despite his struggles so I think that was the key.

***VamPyroX*** · 02-17-2007, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr171soars

Vampy and Jillio...

Just remember good intentions often don't work out the way it was anticipated. Nothing new under the sun. It is one thing to say what would work but it is a totally different thing to make it work. All the links throughout society have to be in place and our society is missing a bunch of links. Blaming the person at top or near the top is the easy way out. It all really comes down to the priorities of all the people involved not just the policymakers. With everybody going in different directions and no consistent and agreed principles...it is a wonder anything gets done at all.

I agree with you. Part of the problem is that everyone blames everyone else or everyone tries to take charge of everything else.

There are parents who aren't very encouraging towards their children. If their children do bad in school, then the parents will blame the school system. My parents were very encouraging. My dad even convinced me to try a few tricky math problems. My mom was an English major and she worked with me on my papers. I love numbers and I'm a picky writer. I thank my parents for that.

I have friends whose parents don't get involved. They never help with homework. They never recommend tutors or say that giving their kids rides to school for help is a waste of time and that they should be getting the education when they are in school during the day. So, what happened to my friends? One of them graduated high school at age 21 at 9th grade math. Another graduated high school at age 19 and is now 32 and living with his parents because no college will accept him and his parents refuse to allow him to get a job at an easy place like McDonalds. Since he's not allowed to get an easy job to match his education level and can't get a hard job because he's not qualified for it, he's stuck at home with his parents. What did the parents do? They blamed the school for making the work too hard. Of course, they complained before that it was too hard and caused the deaf department chairperson to make his work easier.

rockdrummer · 02-17-2007, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

yes there is hope..important u and your family give him full language access both in the air and in print. If u are already doing that and your son is getting that at school too then maybe that is how he learns. Maybe it has nothing to do with his deafness? Every child has their own way of learning so important find out his learning styles or needs and meet them.

What about labeling everything in your house with words? Reading to him every night wont hurt. Fingerspelling the word first, then signing it, and then fingerspelling it again is one way to bridge sign language with written language. To summarize it...exposure exposure..take him out to different places, maybe bring index cards and write the words of the things at the different places u go.

I honestly wish I knew how I learned but according to my mom, I was very motivated when it came to language but my deaf brother wasnt so his learning pace was slower than mine but he turned out fine. He has a college degree and a good job. My mom did the same thing to me as she did for my brother despite his struggles so I think that was the key.

Thanks Shel but I think you have missed my point. I am talking about what is being said regarding the educational system and how despite proof of better results with a given approach, the educators refuses to change. I'm talking about the educational needs that are being recommended from the deaf community not being implemented by the hearing educators supposidly because of their hearing perspective. All of the points that Jillio made in her last few posts. That is what I am referring to when I say hopless.

I agree that parental involvement is important but it's not as easy as you make it sound. Your perspective is a deaf one. If I were proficient in ASL when my son became deaf that would make it easier, but I am not and I am still struggling to learn. It's not easy. ASL are the only classes I am able to find and take. They are not teaching my son ASL. His teacher doesn't even know ASL. There are signs that are quite different between ASL and SEE. Another problem is that my son wont even look at me if I start to fingerspell. He hates language but is very good in math and numbers. It's very difficult to get him focused on reading. He would rather play video games. He's just a kid. You have to remember that hearing people whom have never signed before struggle until they become proficient. Added to that, the child is learning and not proficient either.

shel90 · 02-17-2007, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

Thanks Shel but I think you have missed my point. I am talking about what is being said regarding the educational system and how despite proof of better results with a given approach, the educators refuses to change. I'm talking about the educational needs that are being recommended from the deaf community not being implemented by the hearing educators supposidly because of their hearing perspective. All of the points that Jillio made in her last few posts. That is what I am referring to when I say hopless.

I agree that parental involvement is important but it's not as easy as you make it sound. Your perspective is a deaf one. If I were proficient in ASL when my son became deaf that would make it easier, but I am not and I am still struggling to learn. It's not easy. ASL are the only classes I am able to find and take. They are not teaching my son ASL. His teacher doesn't even know ASL. There are signs that are quite different between ASL and SEE. Another problem is that my son wont even look at me if I start to fingerspell. He hates language but is very good in math and numbers. It's very difficult to get him focused on reading. He would rather play video games. He's just a kid. You have to remember that hearing people whom have never signed before struggle until they become proficient. Added to that, the child is learning and not proficient either.

At least u know some sign language. My mom knew zip sign language while my brother and I were growing up cuz she felt that we didnt need it until my brother started at the public school and found out that it wasnt the right setting for him. Even after he went to the deaf school, she still didnt learn ASL. My dad is another story..he wasnt around.

As for the educational system..I probably would be too biased in this particular discussion cuz of course, I think deaf children should be taught via ASL and then learn English through reading/writing and go to speech classes to work on their speech and lipreading/listening skills. Even now my school is changing cuz the student population is changing so now we are incorporating spoken English into the lessons. Will it be successful? Who knows? The point is that policymakers or administrations keep changing the rules saying this will work..ohh oops it didnt work, let's do it this way. There is no right answer to this.

sr171soars · 02-17-2007, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VamPyroX

I agree with you. Part of the problem is that everyone blames everyone else or everyone tries to take charge of everything else.

There are parents who aren't very encouraging towards their children. If their children do bad in school, then the parents will blame the school system. My parents were very encouraging. My dad even convinced me to try a few tricky math problems. My mom was an English major and she worked with me on my papers. I love numbers and I'm a picky writer. I thank my parents for that.

I have friends whose parents don't get involved. They never help with homework. They never recommend tutors or say that giving their kids rides to school for help is a waste of time and that they should be getting the education when they are in school during the day. So, what happened to my friends? One of them graduated high school at age 21 at 9th grade math. Another graduated high school at age 19 and is now 32 and living with his parents because no college will accept him and his parents refuse to allow him to get a job at an easy place like McDonalds. Since he's not allowed to get an easy job to match his education level and can't get a hard job because he's not qualified for it, he's stuck at home with his parents. What did the parents do? They blamed the school for making the work too hard. Of course, they complained before that it was too hard and caused the deaf department chairperson to make his work easier.

How sad and infantile... Nobody wins with this kind of thinking. This is precisely my point about links and parents are a critical link in the chain. With parents like these, who needs enemies?

jillio · 02-19-2007, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

This sounds like its been a problem for quite some time. You say that nobody is listening to what the deaf community is saying about their needs and you also say that despite studies that prove a given method works better, the hearing educators don't do anything. Will advocating really help?

After reading what folks are saying here it sounds like its a hopless case. Do you mean to tell me that nobody is advocating given all of these problems you mention. Or nothing is being done even though folks are advocates? Is this truly a hopless case? Deafness has been around for ever. I am a parent of a deaf child that is learning at a very slow pace and I have to tell you in all honesty, the things you say concern me deeply. They also paint a picture of no hope. I as a hearing parent with a hearing perspective would not even know where to start in figuring out the best methods to educate a deaf child. I don't even know how many methods there are let alone which to choose. I would hope that the people that know what is best would be the advocates. In my view that would be the elders in the deaf community.

I don't think its hopeless, rockdrummer. It is difficult, frustrating, and exhausting. As you say, your first concern is your child. When advocating for my own child, I often had to be deamanding, and obstinate. Refuse to accept what they tell you is the best approach for your child when you know they are wrong. Never, ever sign an IEP that you don't agree with 100%. If you do sign an IEP, and it later comes to light that the services aren't working, demand another IEP meeting immediately. Never settle for the old money excuse, or the excuse that this is all we can do. Administrators tend to recommend all the same services for all mainstreamed deaf kids, and that is completely contradictory to the concept of an Individualized Educational Plan. Mianstream was not providing what my son needed educationally,and they were clueless as to what would be the most effective. Decisions were made based on whatever resources they had available without new resources being added, not on what would benefit my son ultimately. I decided that the best placement for him would be a school for the deaf. They refused, and refused, and refused. Ibecame a complete pain in their asses, refused to sign IEPs, demanded a due process hearing--and guess what--they decided that maybe paying tuition to a deaf school would be a good idea.

Nothing is ever impossible. It can be damned difficult, but there is always a way. Keep up the effort that you are already making. It will pay off in the end. Deaf educators and elders in the Deaf community are an excellent source of information.

jillio · 02-19-2007, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

and that makes me

I am thinking of getting a job with the Dept of Ed as a policymaker in about 5 to 10 years...I have only been teaching for 5 years so I just need more experience.

Go for it!

jillio · 02-19-2007, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr171soars

How sad and infantile... Nobody wins with this kind of thinking. This is precisely my point about links and parents are a critical link in the chain. With parents like these, who needs enemies?

It is an unfortunate and sad fact for many deaf students!

jillio · 02-19-2007, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shel90

At least u know some sign language. My mom knew zip sign language while my brother and I were growing up cuz she felt that we didnt need it until my brother started at the public school and found out that it wasnt the right setting for him. Even after he went to the deaf school, she still didnt learn ASL. My dad is another story..he wasnt around.

As for the educational system..I probably would be too biased in this particular discussion cuz of course, I think deaf children should be taught via ASL and then learn English through reading/writing and go to speech classes to work on their speech and lipreading/listening skills. Even now my school is changing cuz the student population is changing so now we are incorporating spoken English into the lessons. Will it be successful? Who knows? The point is that policymakers or administrations keep changing the rules saying this will work..ohh oops it didnt work, let's do it this way. There is no right answer to this.

Nodding agreement. But one thing we do know is when ASL was the primary mode of instruction in Deaf schools, and Deaf educators made up the majority of the instructors, literacy rates were higher.

shel90 · 02-19-2007, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

I don't think its hopeless, rockdrummer. It is difficult, frustrating, and exhausting. As you say, your first concern is your child. When advocating for my own child, I often had to be deamanding, and obstinate. Refuse to accept what they tell you is the best approach for your child when you know they are wrong. Never, ever sign an IEP that you don't agree with 100%. If you do sign an IEP, and it later comes to light that the services aren't working, demand another IEP meeting immediately. Never settle for the old money excuse, or the excuse that this is all we can do. Administrators tend to recommend all the same services for all mainstreamed deaf kids, and that is completely contradictory to the concept of an Individualized Educational Plan. Mianstream was not providing what my son needed educationally,and they were clueless as to what would be the most effective. Decisions were made based on whatever resources they had available without new resources being added, not on what would benefit my son ultimately. I decided that the best placement for him would be a school for the deaf. They refused, and refused, and refused. Ibecame a complete pain in their asses, refused to sign IEPs, demanded a due process hearing--and guess what--they decided that maybe paying tuition to a deaf school would be a good idea.

Nothing is ever impossible. It can be damned difficult, but there is always a way. Keep up the effort that you are already making. It will pay off in the end. Deaf educators and elders in the Deaf community are an excellent source of information.

Why do public schools refuse to send deaf children to the deaf schools? We have had parents tell us the same issues too when they felt that the mainstreamed programs werent meeting their deaf child's needs.

The problem with LRE for deaf children is that in the mainstreamed program, they think they are meeting the LRE guidlines but isnt it restrictive for deaf children to have to communicate with their teachers or peers thru a 3rd person (the interpreter) or if the deaf child is sitting in a classroom full of about 35 hearing kids and everyone is having a classroom discussion and the deaf child is completely lost? It sounds like the administrators dont really realize what LRE means for deaf children in the mainstreaming programs.

shel90 · 02-19-2007, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Nodding agreement. But one thing we do know is when ASL was the primary mode of instruction in Deaf schools, and Deaf educators made up the majority of the instructors, literacy rates were higher.

I know. I wish they would just leave it at that but it seems that speech and listening skills take a precedence over literacy and language development?

jillio · 02-19-2007, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

Thanks Shel but I think you have missed my point. I am talking about what is being said regarding the educational system and how despite proof of better results with a given approach, the educators refuses to change. I'm talking about the educational needs that are being recommended from the deaf community not being implemented by the hearing educators supposidly because of their hearing perspective. All of the points that Jillio made in her last few posts. That is what I am referring to when I say hopless.

I agree that parental involvement is important but it's not as easy as you make it sound. Your perspective is a deaf one. If I were proficient in ASL when my son became deaf that would make it easier, but I am not and I am still struggling to learn. It's not easy. ASL are the only classes I am able to find and take. They are not teaching my son ASL. His teacher doesn't even know ASL. There are signs that are quite different between ASL and SEE. Another problem is that my son wont even look at me if I start to fingerspell. He hates language but is very good in math and numbers. It's very difficult to get him focused on reading. He would rather play video games. He's just a kid. You have to remember that hearing people whom have never signed before struggle until they become proficient. Added to that, the child is learning and not proficient either.

Keep signing, and keep trying. Here is a study that indicates that your son, even though his ASL input is inconsistent, will surpass his models at home in proficiency. As a deaf child, he has an innate understanding of the morphemes and grammatical structures within a visual language. The study is, When learners surpass their models:The language acquisition of American Sign Language frim inconsistent output, J. Singleton & E. Newport. It is available online at ScienceDirect - Home, or fromthe journal of cognitive spychology 49 (2004) 370-404.

And, yes, he is just a kid, and needs time to just be a kid. Lessons at home need to be very subtle, not formalized like school. Just constant input and interaction.

If you can, find a deaf club or organization close to you and begin exposure to the Deaf community. You will be amazed at how quickly his ASL skill explode.

rockdrummer · 02-19-2007, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Keep signing, and keep trying. Here is a study that indicates that your son, even though his ASL input is inconsistent, will surpass his models at home in proficiency. As a deaf child, he has an innate understanding of the morphemes and grammatical structures within a visual language. The study is, When learners surpass their models:The language acquisition of American Sign Language frim inconsistent output, J. Singleton & E. Newport. It is available online at ScienceDirect - Home, or fromthe journal of cognitive spychology 49 (2004) 370-404.

And, yes, he is just a kid, and needs time to just be a kid. Lessons at home need to be very subtle, not formalized like school. Just constant input and interaction.

If you can, find a deaf club or organization close to you and begin exposure to the Deaf community. You will be amazed at how quickly his ASL skill explode.

Thanks for the reference and encouraging words. Sometimes I just don't know what to do or where to turn.

jillio · 02-20-2007, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockdrummer

Thanks for the reference and encouraging words. Sometimes I just don't know what to do or where to turn.

That's understandable. You know where to come for support and to let it out though. And you are very welcome. Just trying to give back some of what I was given when my son was small.

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