faire_jour

Wirelessly posted

Clearly that is ignorant mainstream teachers, not oral teachers of the deaf.

Deafness

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Bottesini

I agree, and they should have been fired.

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faire_jour

Wirelessly posted

Shel, i don't know what they would do. why would he want to work for a school that teaches listening and spoken language? what job would he want?

KristinaB

4 were fired and I recently found out that the principal who was the main reason I pulled her from public school the last time has also been fired and had his license stripped and he is no longer allowed in any public or private school. Too many complaints, but at the school board hearing, the few of my daughters dedicated teachers brought out her file they kept, and that was the straw that broke the camels back. They were so appalled at her treatment and everything, that he was fired right there on the spot in the middle of the meeting.

Bottesini

That's about the best example of justice I heard today. Too bad it didn't happen when your daughter was there. But better late than never.

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KristinaB

Yeah - considering we left that school 4 years ago. I also found out that 3 of the Para Professionals (they were aides to the special needs students) took additional training and went to the Missouri School for the Deaf in Fulton, MO.

Silentwolfdog

I don't think this comment is fair imo.

I mean, one got to admit that oral education is a gamble especially with deaf children. One can't deny that there are already many failed cases with deaf children. After all, we were working on their weakest sense. Yes, we understand there are many many deaf children who thrives from this and become successful adults who hear and speak. But what about the unlucky ones? So for the unlucky ones, they lose out... everything from speech to even knowledge itself. The lost years can't be redeemed. What do we say to them? "Geez, sorry others were successful accord to the professionals, so I assumed you will be too."?

Where with those that choose not to pursue speech, well they still have visual, the strongest sense among deafies. So they may lose out ability to speak, BUT they don't lose out the knowledge of language at least, wait... heck not just that but...the knowledge in general. I have never heard of one failed case with deaf children who gained signing skill first instead of speech skill, all because of skill they gained. I mean there got to be a reason that hearing parent of hearing children are learning baby signs to communicate with hearing children, even. This, what I find to be the greatest irony, unfortunately.

I think this is what many deaf people feared, the risky...gamble that parent took upon their deaf children. I think this is the battle that is being fought between two sides.

I am not saying oral education is wrong, just that it's awful risky gamble to take on deaf children. I understand the critical period for the brain of the youth before it changes to visual, but eh...

I mean if I got deaf children, of course I would try and see if they can develop speech and hearing aspect of their brain. Just that... I acknowledge the importance of offering both and I am not gonna worry too much if they can't speak. As long as they got knowledge, while the world may be harsh on em or that they may hate me for not help them develop the speech skill...I know they will survive as long as they got knowledge and it will give em a fighting chance regardless. I can't say that for those who got speech skills, but no knowledge to back em up. Knowledge in the end, probably will always outweigh the speech skills.

Acknowledging all of that is important I would think.

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deafdyke

Actually that would be true for even the kids who develop good oral skills. Oral abilty does NOT allow for automatic 100% access to the hearing world. That's why you have tons of honor role oral kids still struggling socially, as well as tons of orally skilled people saying they dont feel like they fit into the hearing world. Heck, if being oral meant that ASL isn't useful, we wouldnt have a ton of hoh folks posting here saying they wish they'd had access to ASL and Deaf culture from the start. The key is that we need to introduce ALL dhh kids to the full toolbox option, and see what THEY find useful. There may be some oral kids who never find ASL all that useful.....but its still a good tool to have in a toolbox!

shel90

Most of us here and I am sure most of us out there want deaf children to have both. Why do you ,parents, continue to resist it? I think it is fear and many wont admit it.

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GrendelQ

I don't think there's fear, I think it's a matter of availability and cost.

From what I've read of FJ, it sounds like she fought long and hard to get ASL integrated into her child's program from the start, against enormous obstacles. There was no bi-bi school that provided both ASL and spoken language available (FJ, correct me if I'm wrong there, please).

My family is SO lucky to have access to a wonderful bi-bi school that provides an auditory access program specifically for cochlear implant and HA kids as well as ASL immersion. We just have to keep a threshhold of these amazing little kids in the program for it to continue. Tough, against some of the negative preconceptions about what kind of child gets 'dumped' in a school for the deaf and the costs. It's early education, but the level of education my daughter is getting is as good or more advanced right now than I see in any of the toniest of private school preK environments. She's thriving, speaking, hearing, signing. We've chosen a school for the deaf that provides her with the best possible access -- for her -- to the full educational experience AND language instruction in 2 languages.

But, like any private school, it's enormously expensive. My local school district is paying $60K+ every year to send my daughter to this wonderful school. How long will they (and our neighbors paying the taxes to support this) assume that burden on the school's budget? I don't have an extra $60K a year in my bank account to send my 4 YO to private school if they decide to cut the program and offer her instead an itinerant TOD/aide and accommodations (seat up front, tennis balls on chairs, carpeted floors and an FM system) in their mainstream classrooms -- or no accommodations at all depending upon how they interpret her testing (and whether or not I can discreetly flick off my daughter's CIs just prior to the test ) .

I think this combination of access to an ASL+spoken language+rigorous academic program AND a subsidized or free ride is very rare. And I thank my lucky stars every morning when she delightedly steps into that van to the school she loves. If it were available, I think you'd see a whole lot of pick-up among those who have only the oral-only option right now.

faire_jour

Wirelessly posted

Swd, my only point was that both sets of parents would be "limiting" their child's future options.

dd, there was a recent study that disagrees with you. it followed a group of ci kids and compared them to hearing kids in math, reading, language, speech and self esteem, and at the end of 5 years there was no difference between the groups in any of the areas.

faire_jour

Wirelessly posted

Grendel, i agree with you!

if parents had access to high acheiving, bilingual programs that allowed their children to have fluency in both languages (with emphasis on on auditory as well as asl) i believe they would flock to them.

as it is right now there are few programs with asl and audition and many schools for the deaf are "dumping grounds" for kids who are behind. parents don't want that.

the reason my daughter is in the oral program at home is because her bi-bi school flatly refused to provide anything auditory.

the idea that a child can learn fluent spoken language in an hour a week of pull out therapy is ludicris. a deaf child needs language immersion, and that is what the oral schools offer.

KristinaB

imo, that "study" was not logical since it may not have included kids or children in all social and educational settings. I don't think that is a fair representation on the education of children with CI's and without in oral, bi-bi, deaf or mainstream. There just wasn't enough variety of all children, therefore, it doesn't give the whole picture. Interpret it any way you want, but please stop quoting it as the "end all and be all" for this discussion. All people are entitled to their opinion and it's no ones place to slam or discredit their opinion. Some of us know what we went through, others of us know what our children are going through, and still others are going through it now, whether they are the student, the parent or the teacher. There is no one correct answer, but in my honest opinion (some other will not agree, but I think most will) it makes more sense for ALL children to have both oral and ASL. If they are not able to attain oral skills, then stop pushing it. Not all children will learn oral skills and they should not be looked down upon or even ridiculed. They tried, the education system tried and it didn't work. Anymore these days, most states do not have the funding to provide all the services you are advocating and think is law.

This thread asked for our own opinion on what we we provide our children. I think most of us answered that and may not have been expecting to be "slammed" or "shamed" for our decision. I can't say that someone messed up or screwed up because they didn't get all the services. I didn't and other's didn't. I am seeing that not all CI users are not happy with their CI. You will notice, I said not all. Yes, some do like their CI's and are glad to have them, but there are others of all different ages that don't like them. I know of some people off this forum who absolutely hate their CI and are planning on having the whole thing removed and going without anything because their parents made the decision without taking into consideration their feeling and wants. They were 4-10 when the implants were done.

This is just my two cents for today.

faire_jour

Wirelessly posted

Posting issues, sorry (on my phone)

A

Have you seen sound and fury , the lastest one?, the little girl had pulled out speech therapy before she was implanted.. She is talking and hearing now with her implant.

faire_jour

Wirelessly posted

It was a study of kids in av therapy (the kind of therapy that most kids get after an implant).

and if you are saying that kids in other situations don't acheive the same resultsm wouldn't that be evidence to parents that the other choices don't work as well, and they should choose av because it would be the path that puts them on par with hearing kids?

KristinaB

That's not what I was saying. I am saying that they did not follow a diverse number of kids from all types of situations. I did not think I was being obtuse or ignorant or stupid. Please stop making me feel that way!!

A

The first 5 years doesn't really count if they are starting from infant to 5 years old. I mean it is great and all that they can keep up with hearing.. but only time can tell they will have issues along the way.

faire_jour

Wirelessly posted

A, i did see sound and fury. and after she got her implant the family pulled her out of the deaf school and mainstreamed her.

faire_jour

Wirelessly posted

The study definatly didn't start at birth, it was after they were older, i'm not sure how old, i'll have to check on that.

A

Right, but remember, she did develop speech from a pull out speech therapy before she had her implant. She had her implant late. And she sign at home

AlleyCat

Skype me. You can listen to my speech then. You'll see what I accomplished with the very idea you are claiming to be ludricious. And others have done the same. Don't discount it for everyone. You are not the deaf one here who has to try to make this work, remember.

A

She was talking about schools that use Sign language all day, in total silent, and have pull out speech for one hour

AlleyCat

Right. I read her post correctly. I had speech pullout for one hour too, and not even every day.

deafskeptic

Ditto here. The fact that the majority of deaf agreeing with Shel and Natty should give the hearing parents a clue.

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deafskeptic

Even in the oral program, I had speech 3x a week. When I was mainstreamed, I had speech on a weekly basis. Ditto for Deaf school. I have not taken speech class since 10th grade and most strangers can understand me just fine as long as I don't use words I don't know how to pronounce.

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Upgraded to Opus 2 9/10/2010
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shel90

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shel90

And it is very very evident that sign language didnt harm the child at all.

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shel90

I know and understand that which is why I want to push for less oral-only programs and have more oral programs that offer ASL as well. I feel that most oral-only programs shun it and continue with the stereotyping that ASL is only used as a last resort. I still see it happening out there today.

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GrendelQ

AlleyCat, you were in a bi-bi school for the deaf with only pull-out speech and developed your spoken English in that way? Did you have any other environmental input that may have helped (any speakers at home?)?

I'm not at all challenging you on this, btw, my daughter is at a bi-bi school and so I love seeing examples of where this approach (asl at school/spoken language at home) is successful.