Why Are Men Dominating the Debate About Birth Control for Women? - Page 11

Steinhauer · 03-01-2012, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Me, too. Being a Christian doesn't exclude that. They are compatible.

Yeah I know - I have noticed a lot of hypocrisy in those trying to claim hypocrisy in Christianity and religion.

Just an example is a quotation floating around touting "Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings".

I am not sure whom the quote is attributed to but .... it was Wehrner Von Braun's research that got us to the moon. A rocket scientist that based his research on the belief in Intelligent Design.

I am assuming the trolls will be along any minute to point out he was just a crazy nazi.

But .... he is responsible for landing man on the moon .... the quote mentioned does not point that out. Just thought it was important.

kokonut · 03-02-2012, 02:09 PM

Bold below is my emphasis that ought to be common sense enough but read the rest to understand why so many people are making this contraceptives into a boogeyman deal. It's certainly not a health crisis.

Quote:

Forget for a minute the religious question and look at who wins big here: Big Pharma. This mandate is not really about condoms or generic versions of “the pill,” which are available free or cheap in lots of places. This is about brand-name birth control drugs and other devices that some consumers swear off because they are too expensive. The Health and Human Services (HHS) mandate requires health-insurance companies provide contraceptive coverage for all “FDA approved contraceptive methods.” It does not insist on generics. And it does not offer any cost containment.

What’s more, the mandate prevents health-insurance companies from having copays or deductibles for the benefit. This is the perfect set up for Big Pharma. Since the drugs will be paid for by a third party (insurance companies, who will pass the cost on to employers and the rest of us), the consumer won’t worry about the price. Expensive brand names will no doubt see demand rise. Ask more health-care analysts why the cost of medical services continues to rise so rapidly and near the top of the list is the fact that a third-party payment system won’t contain costs.

Back in 2009, many observers were surprised when Big Pharma came out in favor of President Obama’s health-care reform bill. The industry spent millions running television ads in favor of the law and industry lobbyists pushed hard for it. One important reason they did so was the promise that with the new law they would have a new market of millions of new customers. The contraceptive mandate is a perfect example.

Peter Schweizer: Big Pharma

Makes sense. They sure are trying hard to play the woe-is-me game and that's exactly they angle they're aiming for in the effort to elicit sympathy.

VacationGuy234 · 03-02-2012, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Yeah I know - I have noticed a lot of hypocrisy in those trying to claim hypocrisy in Christianity and religion.

Just an example is a quotation floating around touting "Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings".

I am not sure whom the quote is attributed to but .... it was Wehrner Von Braun's research that got us to the moon. A rocket scientist that based his research on the belief in Intelligent Design.

I am assuming the trolls will be along any minute to point out he was just a crazy nazi.

But .... he is responsible for landing man on the moon .... the quote mentioned does not point that out. Just thought it was important.

I'm missing the point here. Where is science hypocritical? Can you site an example?

kokonut · 03-02-2012, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VacationGuy234

I'm missing the point here. Where is science hypocritical? Can you site an example?

Climategate 2.0 Exposes Climate Science Hypocrisy on eve of UN's Durban Conference -- WASHINGTON, Nov. 23, 2011 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ --
Climategate 1.0
Climategate 2.0

Climate scientist Peter Gleick admits he leaked Heartland Institute documents - 21 Feb 2012 - News from BusinessGreen
Fakegate 1.0.

VacationGuy234 · 03-02-2012, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

Climategate 2.0 Exposes Climate Science Hypocrisy on eve of UN's Durban Conference -- WASHINGTON, Nov. 23, 2011 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ --
Climategate 1.0
Climategate 2.0

Climate scientist Peter Gleick admits he leaked Heartland Institute documents - 21 Feb 2012 - News from BusinessGreen
Fakegate 1.0.

Dude, climate change is real, if it wasn't the U.S. wouldn't be spending money on planning shipping routes through the Arctic.

Give me an example of hypocracy were one does not practice what they preach!

kokonut · 03-02-2012, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VacationGuy234

Dude, climate change is real, if it wasn't the U.S. wouldn't be spending money on planning shipping routes through the Arctic.

Give me an example of hypocracy were one does not practice what they preach!

Climate change happens all the time. Arctic shipping routes open and close all the time. We all know that, supposedly so.

I already gave you one example, Mr. Gleick. And there are a whole bunch of examples seen in Climategate 1.0 and 2.0.

Steinhauer · 03-03-2012, 12:11 AM

Biden: We 'Screwed Up' Birth-Control Mandate

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-decision.html

If I ran a Catholic organization (I am not Catholic, nor do I run an organization) I would shut it down if I were being forced to violate my faith and principals. I hope Catholics shut down every hospital, orphanage and any community outreach program until this administration gets its head back on straight.

Journey · 03-03-2012, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

I hope Catholics shut down every hospital, orphanage and any community outreach program until this administration gets its head back on straight.

Seriously?

**TXgolfer** · 03-03-2012, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Journey

Seriously?

Why not. If the left can shut down places with union and occupy protests turnabout is fair play. I don't think there is any chance they would do it but I would cheer them if they did.

Journey · 03-03-2012, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Why not. If the left can shut down places with union and occupy protests turnabout is fair play. I don't think there is any chance they would do it but I would cheer them if they did.

Completely shutting down essential services such as hospitals and childrens' homes is illegal and, even more importantly (I think), such action would be totally contrary to the heart of Christian or humane values. Perhaps they need to stop accepting government funding in order to be able to stand fully on the side of no goverment interference.

**TXgolfer** · 03-03-2012, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Journey

Completely shutting down essential services such as hospitals and childrens' homes is illegal

Not necessarily, Plus so is pooping on cop cars and blocking ports of entry

Quote:

and, even more importantly (I think), such action would be totally contrary to the heart of Christian or humane values.

Hence, I don't think they will

Quote:

Perhaps they need to stop accepting government funding in order to be able to stand fully on the side of no goverment interference.

Umm.....

VacationGuy234 · 03-03-2012, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

Climate change happens all the time. Arctic shipping routes open and close all the time. We all know that, supposedly so.

I already gave you one example, Mr. Gleick. And there are a whole bunch of examples seen in Climategate 1.0 and 2.0.

No, you did not, you cited deception not hypocracy. Hypocracy is, I preach celebacy and have sex that's hypocracy.

Again, give me an example where science is hypocrytical.

kokonut · 03-03-2012, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VacationGuy234

No, you did not, you cited deception not hypocracy. Hypocracy is, I preach celebacy and have sex, that's hypocracy.

Again, give me an example where science is hypocrytical.

Again, I've provided two links about the hypocrisy of science on global warming where you have a cadre of climate scientists who have coordinated their advocacy efforts ahead of science rather than let science do the talking.

Here's Dr. Gleick who is blind to his own hypocrisy:

Quote:

Table 1
Categories of Deceitful Tactics and Abuse of the Scientific Process
(source: P.H. Gleick, Pacific Institute, 2007)

There are many tactics used to argue for or against scientific conclusions that are inappropriate, involve deceit, or directly abuse the scientific process.

Personal (“Ad Hominem”) Attacks
This approach uses attacks against the character, circumstances, or motives of a person in order to discredit their argument or claim, independent of the scientific evidence.
Demonization
Guilt by Association
Challenge to Motive (such as greed or funding)

You can read it here:

http://www.pacinst.org/topics/integr..._and_abuse.pdf

Journey · 03-03-2012, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Not necessarily, Plus so is pooping on cop cars and blocking ports of entry

Ok, upon looking further it appears that essential services law vary in North America, my mistake. But I cannot bring myself to consider the shutting down of hospitals and childrens' homes on par with pooping on cars or blocking entries. The results of these actions are far to disparate as are the people involved.

**TXgolfer** · 03-03-2012, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Journey

Ok, upon looking further it appears that essential services law vary in North America, my mistake. But I cannot bring myself to consider the shutting down of hospitals and childrens' homes on par with pooping on cars or blocking entries. The results of these actions are far to disparate as are the people involved.

Ar eyou certain no essential medical equipment was entering the port? And, I am sure the people who lost pay the days the ports were shut down felt the pinch.

Journey · 03-04-2012, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Ar eyou certain no essential medical equipment was entering the port? And, I am sure the people who lost pay the days the ports were shut down felt the pinch.

No I am not certain and made no reference to that. I also do not deny people were affected by lost wages. The argument here is that I do not believe it is reasonable to equate the detrimental/negative effects of OWS actions to that of shutting down all Catholic run hospitals, childrens' homes and outreach programs. The only time turnabout can be considered fair play is when the actions and consequences have equal impact. Even in the fairest of all tit-for-tat situations, it does more damage than good and, I believe, that type of thinking and action is unproductive.

**TXgolfer** · 03-04-2012, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Journey

No I am not certain and made no reference to that. I also do not deny people were affected by lost wages. The argument here is that I do not believe it is reasonable to equate the detrimental/negative effects of OWS actions to that of shutting down all Catholic run hospitals, childrens' homes and outreach programs. The only time turnabout can be considered fair play is when the actions and consequences have equal impact. Even in the fairest of all tit-for-tat situations, it does more damage than good and, I believe, that type of thinking and action is unproductive.

I am not concerned about it. I feel pretty certain religion based businesses will be exempt when all is said and done.

kokonut · 03-04-2012, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

I am not concerned about it. I feel pretty certain religion based businesses will be exempt when all is said and done.

If so, then it's just for the time being. A precedent has been set (soon). It won't be long til the long arm reaches into every religious institutions and religion based businesses when their religious beliefs no longer matters.

**TXgolfer** · 03-04-2012, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

If so, then it's just for the time being. A precedent has been set (soon). It won't be long til the long arm reaches into every religious institutions and religion based businesses when their religious beliefs no longer matters.

No doubt

Journey · 03-04-2012, 06:49 PM

Should any hospital be a 'religious-based business'. I think the patient should be able to determine which types of care they receive or refuse, not the hospital or staff. I think all hospitals should be equipped and ready to deliver any and all types of care possible.

**TXgolfer** · 03-04-2012, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Journey

Should any hospital be a 'religious-based business'. I think the patient should be able to determine which types of care they receive or refuse, not the hospital or staff. I think all hospitals should be equipped and ready to deliver any and all types of care possible.

You have a choice in hospitals here and again I think you misunderstand the mandate. It's about forcing religious based businesses to pay for contraceptive coverage for others...not care. And IMO our constitution prohibits this. We will have to see if the courts agree.

**KarissaMann05** · 03-04-2012, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Journey

Should any hospital be a 'religious-based business'. I think the patient should be able to determine which types of care they receive or refuse, not the hospital or staff. I think all hospitals should be equipped and ready to deliver any and all types of care possible.

I wonder, what would you say about this? A meeting of hearts if not minds between Jehovah's Witnesses and an atheist doctor | Deseret News

Journey · 03-04-2012, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

You have a choice in hospitals here and again I think you misunderstand the mandate. It's about forcing religious based businesses to pay for contraceptive coverage for others...not care. And IMO our constitution prohibits this. We will have to see if the courts agree.

No, I don't misunderstand, I was expanding on "religious based businesses" and what you and kokonut think may lie in wait for them. This mandate, the ensuing debates and talk of exemptions has always had me wondering whether hospitals should be religion-based at all

**TXgolfer** · 03-04-2012, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Journey

No, I don't misunderstand, I was expanding on "religious based businesses" and what you and kokonut think may lie in wait for them. This mandate, the ensuing debates and talk of exemptions has always had me wondering whether hospitals should be religion-based at all

Not all of them are... Not sure how cutting charity out of a burdened system would be a good thing either.

Journey · 03-04-2012, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarissaMann05

I wonder, what would you say about this? A meeting of hearts if not minds between Jehovah's Witnesses and an atheist doctor | Deseret News

If I am reading it correctly, this is exactly what I was talking about. A hospital and its staff should have all possible medicines, services and procedures available and they should be ready to use them all in their role as health care provider. It is then up to the patient to determine which ones they will or will not accept for themselves. I applaud a health care professional who puts their own religious beliefs second to the care and beliefs of their patient.

**KarissaMann05** · 03-04-2012, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Journey

If I am reading it correctly, this is exactly what I was talking about. A hospital and its staff should have all possible medicines, services and procedures available and they should be ready to use them all in their role as health care provider. It is then up to the patient to determine which ones they will or will not accept for themselves. I applaud a health care professional who puts their own religious beliefs second to the care and beliefs of their patient.

Yeah, true. Too bad, most non-religious doctors tend to argue with them because of their religious beliefs they disagree.

***Calvin*** · 03-04-2012, 07:35 PM

Mod note:

Religious discussion is off limits... this thread is closed.

03-04-2012, 07:35 PM	#327 (permalink)
*Calvin* Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 4,896	Mod note: Religious discussion is off limits... this thread is closed. KristinaB likes this.

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03-03-2012, 12:11 AM	#307 (permalink)
Steinhauer Banned Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 8,191 Blog Entries: 1	Biden: We 'Screwed Up' Birth-Control Mandate http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-decision.html If I ran a Catholic organization (I am not Catholic, nor do I run an organization) I would shut it down if I were being forced to violate my faith and principals. I hope Catholics shut down every hospital, orphanage and any community outreach program until this administration gets its head back on straight.

03-04-2012, 06:49 PM	#320 (permalink)
Journey Registered User Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Canada Posts: 976	Should any hospital be a 'religious-based business'. I think the patient should be able to determine which types of care they receive or refuse, not the hospital or staff. I think all hospitals should be equipped and ready to deliver any and all types of care possible.