'Open Carry' Law Contoversy: Gun Owner Cited - Page 6

**Jiro** · 10-25-2011, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

There may be a very good reason why the gun needs to be taken out of his hands. It certainly sounds as if his attitude is representative of a person who thinks they have something to prove.

how did you come up with that since you mentioned "I don't know. I wasn't there."

**Jiro** · 10-25-2011, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

I'm interested in jillio's reasoning behind that. I do have a good idea why she might think it's a crime of passion. It's just not the lover's kind of passion.

simple - just like Brady Campaign people... they'll conveniently fit any emotionally-charged words into their agenda to garner public support and knee-jerk reactions from legislators to further restriction guns.... or to ban guns.

jillio · 10-25-2011, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

A posted sign is not a matter of legality. It's just a store policy. "Legal" is referring to law created by government, not private business. I've never heard of a person getting arrested for breaking a store rule

It's illegal to carry a gun into any government building such as municipal court because it's a law and you can get arrested for it.

It's not illegal to carry a gun into any private establishment and you can get banished from it if there is a sign posted on wall prohibiting firearm on premise.

If a sign is posted, and something illegal occurs with someone who has a weapon that has been prohibited according to the sign, and someone gets shot, the person who was injured or his/her family cannot come back and sue the establishment for negligence or damages. That is what I was referring to as "covering their butt". That holds true whether it is a CCW, an open carry, or a no carry state. It is considered to be a reasonable precaution.

jillio · 10-25-2011, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

I'm interested in jillio's reasoning behind that. I do have a good idea why she might think it's a crime of passion. It's just not the lover's kind of passion.

Because it was a crime committed from an emotional reasoning. People tend to think that crime of passion can only occur between lovers, or something akin to that.

jillio · 10-25-2011, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

simple - just like Brady Campaign people... they'll conveniently fit any emotionally-charged words into their agenda to garner public support and knee-jerk reactions from legislators to further restriction guns.... or to ban guns.

Please don't speak for me. I am perfectly capable of explaining my own posts.

It has nothing to do with the Brady law.

jillio · 10-25-2011, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

how did you come up with that since you mentioned "I don't know. I wasn't there."

Because there could be a good reason. I am drawing my conclusions from the report posted. Are you saying that there is no possiblity that this guy could have had the attitude of having something to prove? All I said was that is was possible that he could have needed the gun taken away.

**Jiro** · 10-25-2011, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Please don't speak for me. I am perfectly capable of explaining my own posts.

It has nothing to do with the Brady law.

Brady Campaign, not Brady law. because you think like that. your reasoning is same as theirs.

btw - if you check how effective Brady Law was.... you will find that prosecution and conviction under Brady Law was rare.

meaning... it was a colossal waste of time and a serious misuse of federal funding.

**Jiro** · 10-25-2011, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Because there could be a good reason. I am drawing my conclusions from the report posted. Are you saying that there is no possiblity that this guy could have had the attitude of having something to prove? All I said was that is was possible that he could have needed the gun taken away.

nope. never happened. he has done it many times at many stores. no incident had happened. the only incident I hear all the time is poor citizens in gun-ban state being robbed and killed by criminals who had an easy access to illegally obtain guns.

**Jiro** · 10-25-2011, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Because it was a crime committed from an emotional reasoning. People tend to think that crime of passion can only occur between lovers, or something akin to that.

is premeditation part of crime of passion?

**Jiro** · 10-25-2011, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

If a sign is posted, and something illegal occurs with someone who has a weapon that has been prohibited according to the sign, and someone gets shot, the person who was injured or his/her family cannot come back and sue the establishment for negligence or damages. That is what I was referring to as "covering their butt". That holds true whether it is a CCW, an open carry, or a no carry state. It is considered to be a reasonable precaution.

so it covers establishment's ass when it comes to legal issue for whatever happened on its property but it does not hold a bearing as "law" for anybody on its property therefore you cannot get arrested nor criminally charged for breaking a store policy in a state that legally allows it.

**Reba** · 10-25-2011, 06:33 PM

The laws concerning "no firearms" signs are very specific.

For South Carolina:

SECTION 23-31-235. Sign requirements.

(A) Notwithstanding any other provision of this article, any requirement of or allowance for the posting of signs prohibiting the carrying of a concealable weapon upon any premises shall only be satisfied by a sign expressing the prohibition in both written language interdict and universal sign language.

(B) All signs must be posted at each entrance into a building where a concealable weapon permit holder is prohibited from carrying a concealable weapon and must be:

(1) clearly visible from outside the building;

(2) eight inches wide by twelve inches tall in size;

(3) contain the words “NO CONCEALABLE WEAPONS ALLOWED” in black one inch tall uppercase type at the bottom of the sign and centered between the lateral edges of the sign;

(4) contain a black silhouette of a handgun inside a circle seven inches in diameter with a diagonal line that runs from the lower left to the upper right at a forty five degree angle from the horizontal;

(5) a diameter of a circle; and

(6) placed not less than forty inches and not more than sixty inches from the bottom of the building’s entrance door.

(C) If the premises where concealable weapons are prohibited does not have doors, then the signs contained in subsection (A) must be:

(1) thirty six inches wide by forty eight inches tall in size;

(2) contain the words “NO CONCEALABLE WEAPONS ALLOWED” in black three inch tall uppercase type at the bottom of the sign and centered between the lateral edges of the sign;

(3) contain a black silhouette of a handgun inside a circle thirty four inches in diameter with a diagonal line that is two inches wide and runs from the lower left to the upper right at a forty five degree angle from the horizontal and must be a diameter of a circle whose circumference is two inches wide;

(4) placed not less than forty inches and not more than ninety six inches above the ground;

(5) posted in sufficient quantities to be clearly visible from any point of entry onto the premises.

**Reba** · 10-25-2011, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

so it covers establishment's ass when it comes to legal issue for whatever happened on its property but it does not hold a bearing as "law" for anybody on its property therefore you cannot get arrested nor criminally charged for breaking a store policy in a state that legally allows it.

In SC, businesses don't need a sign posted for CYA purposes.

The law says:

"(R) No provision contained within this article shall expand, diminish, or affect the duty of care owed by and liability accruing to, as may exist at law immediately before the effective date of this article, the owner of or individual in legal possession of real property for the injury or death of an invitee, licensee, or trespasser caused by the use or misuse by a third party of a concealable weapon. Absence of a sign prohibiting concealable weapons shall not constitute negligence or establish a lack of duty of care."

**Jiro** · 10-25-2011, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

The laws concerning "no firearms" signs are very specific.

For South Carolina:

SECTION 23-31-235. Sign requirements.

(A) Notwithstanding any other provision of this article, any requirement of or allowance for the posting of signs prohibiting the carrying of a concealable weapon upon any premises shall only be satisfied by a sign expressing the prohibition in both written language interdict and universal sign language.

(B) All signs must be posted at each entrance into a building where a concealable weapon permit holder is prohibited from carrying a concealable weapon and must be:

(1) clearly visible from outside the building;

(2) eight inches wide by twelve inches tall in size;

(3) contain the words “NO CONCEALABLE WEAPONS ALLOWED” in black one inch tall uppercase type at the bottom of the sign and centered between the lateral edges of the sign;

(4) contain a black silhouette of a handgun inside a circle seven inches in diameter with a diagonal line that runs from the lower left to the upper right at a forty five degree angle from the horizontal;

(5) a diameter of a circle; and

(6) placed not less than forty inches and not more than sixty inches from the bottom of the building’s entrance door.

(C) If the premises where concealable weapons are prohibited does not have doors, then the signs contained in subsection (A) must be:

(1) thirty six inches wide by forty eight inches tall in size;

(2) contain the words “NO CONCEALABLE WEAPONS ALLOWED” in black three inch tall uppercase type at the bottom of the sign and centered between the lateral edges of the sign;

(3) contain a black silhouette of a handgun inside a circle thirty four inches in diameter with a diagonal line that is two inches wide and runs from the lower left to the upper right at a forty five degree angle from the horizontal and must be a diameter of a circle whose circumference is two inches wide;

(4) placed not less than forty inches and not more than ninety six inches above the ground;

(5) posted in sufficient quantities to be clearly visible from any point of entry onto the premises.

What happens if you as a CCW carrier ignored the sign?

**Reba** · 10-25-2011, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

If a sign is posted, and something illegal occurs with someone who has a weapon that has been prohibited according to the sign, and someone gets shot, the person who was injured or his/her family cannot come back and sue the establishment for negligence or damages. That is what I was referring to as "covering their butt". That holds true whether it is a CCW, an open carry, or a no carry state. It is considered to be a reasonable precaution.

In SC, the businesses can't be sued, sign or no sign.

"... Absence of a sign prohibiting concealable weapons shall not constitute negligence or establish a lack of duty of care."

**Reba** · 10-25-2011, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

What happens if you as a CCW carrier ignored the sign?

Depends. The whole point of concealed weapons is that other people aren't aware when you're packing a piece.

However, if I see that sign, and I'm carrying (very unlikely), I don't go in.

Here's what the law says:

"A person who wilfully violates a provision of this subsection is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined not less than one thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than one year, or both, at the discretion of the court and have his permit revoked for five years."

**Reba** · 10-25-2011, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

is premeditation part of crime of passion?

Nope. A crime of passion must be without premeditation.

**Jiro** · 10-25-2011, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Depends. The whole point of concealed weapons is that other people aren't aware when you're packing a piece.

However, if I see that sign, and I'm carrying (very unlikely), I don't go in.

Here's what the law says:

"A person who wilfully violates a provision of this subsection is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined not less than one thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than one year, or both, at the discretion of the court and have his permit revoked for five years."

so I was wrong on the part where you don't get arrested for ignoring store's "No Gun Allowed" sign but this is limited to only South Carolina.

I wonder... How many people were convicted of this?

**TXgolfer** · 10-25-2011, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

What happens if you as a CCW carrier ignored the sign?

Or couldn't read? Didn't speak english? Or just stupid?

PoiToy · 10-25-2011, 08:31 PM

I can only speak to my own motivations for carrying. I'm a 5'2", 125-lb mother of 2. I don't know karate and I frequently have a child on my hip (I can shoot one-handed if necessary but said kid would probably slow down my ninja moves). My mother was robbed in a Walmart parking lot (in the "nice" part of town). My best friend was raped outside of her workplace after leaving one evening (still light out). I don't live in a "bad" neighborhood, though I grew up in one. I often drive on long stretches of unlit, unpatrolled road.

I'm a law-abiding citizen, though I sincerely wish I could carry in my school. I live near Virginia Tech. Maybe less people would have died there had at least one person been able to legally carry. There's no way of knowing that, but if the alarm is sounded while I'm in class that there's a shooter on campus, I'd damn sure like to have a weapon of my own, not to be a vigilante, but for protection. Somebody mentioned Columbine: An armed teacher at Columbine might have been useful, instead of only terrified. That's not to belittle the actions of any heroes from that day, only to say that less lives lost is ALWAYS better.

I carry because, while I support the police and *hope* they will always be nearby to protect me, they cannot instantly appear at my side. Even if nothing prevents me from immediately making contact with them, there will always be a response time in which I or mine could be injured, raped or murdered. I hope I never need my car insurance, fire alarms or home security system (haven't yet). But I bought them to protect myself and my family. I hope I never, ever have to fire a weapon at another human being. But I bought and carry it for the same reason. Because shit happens and the difference between being dead or alive (in any situation) is often being prepared.

I too would love to see multiple links to news stories regarding law-abiding citizens suddenly losing their minds in anger and shooting someone. Could it happen? Sure. They could also go nuts and stab somebody. Drive their car into a crowd. Set someone's house on fire. Does it happen often enough that taking guns away from ALL citizens is warranted? I don't think so. Show me data that says otherwise. And go ahead and ban carrying knives, car keys and matches too then, because all are sometimes used as weapons in crimes of passion.

Removing guns from the hands of lawfully-armed people does NOT prevent crime. It only makes criminals better armed than their victims, because criminals don't follow gun laws. And yeah, they show up in grocery stores, convenience stores, offices, schools, parks...even in the nice parts of town. The idea that a grocery store is some special protected place where one is completely safe from crime is silly.

Here's my token example of 1) A man deterring murderers by displaying his gun (in his home) and 2) Criminals killing unarmed people with knives.

Dartmouth Murders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

jillio · 10-25-2011, 08:55 PM

I have a token example of the deaths of innocent people from the availability of firearms. Check the CDC stats.

**Jiro** · 10-25-2011, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Or couldn't read? Didn't speak english? Or just stupid?

How about all of above? There's bound to be an idiot but I haven't heard of anything stupid like that for a long time (specifically an incident involving CCW holder). You came from gun-friendly state. You hear anything similar?

**Jiro** · 10-25-2011, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

I have a token example of the deaths of innocent people from the availability of firearms. Check the CDC stats.

Any of deaths caused by CCW or OC in public?

**TXgolfer** · 10-25-2011, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

How about all of above? There's bound to be an idiot but I haven't heard of anything stupid like that for a long time (specifically an incident involving CCW holder). You came from gun-friendly state. You hear anything similar?

Nope

jillio · 10-25-2011, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

How about all of above? There's bound to be an idiot but I haven't heard of anything stupid like that for a long time (specifically an incident involving CCW holder). You came from gun-friendly state. You hear anything similar?

I guess the old expression, ignorance is no excuse for not following the law missed you, huh?

jillio · 10-25-2011, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

Any of deaths caused by CCW or OC in public?

Any deaths at all? Sure. You think those CCW or OC never get used? That is tantamount to saying the death penalty reduces crime.

**Jiro** · 10-25-2011, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoiToy

I can only speak to my own motivations for carrying. I'm a 5'2", 125-lb mother of 2. I don't know karate and I frequently have a child on my hip (I can shoot one-handed if necessary but said kid would probably slow down my ninja moves). My mother was robbed in a Walmart parking lot (in the "nice" part of town). My best friend was raped outside of her workplace after leaving one evening (still light out). I don't live in a "bad" neighborhood, though I grew up in one. I often drive on long stretches of unlit, unpatrolled road.

I'm a law-abiding citizen, though I sincerely wish I could carry in my school. I live near Virginia Tech. Maybe less people would have died there had at least one person been able to legally carry. There's no way of knowing that, but if the alarm is sounded while I'm in class that there's a shooter on campus, I'd damn sure like to have a weapon of my own, not to be a vigilante, but for protection. Somebody mentioned Columbine: An armed teacher at Columbine might have been useful, instead of only terrified. That's not to belittle the actions of any heroes from that day, only to say that less lives lost is ALWAYS better.

I carry because, while I support the police and *hope* they will always be nearby to protect me, they cannot instantly appear at my side. Even if nothing prevents me from immediately making contact with them, there will always be a response time in which I or mine could be injured, raped or murdered. I hope I never need my car insurance, fire alarms or home security system (haven't yet). But I bought them to protect myself and my family. I hope I never, ever have to fire a weapon at another human being. But I bought and carry it for the same reason. Because shit happens and the difference between being dead or alive (in any situation) is often being prepared.

I too would love to see multiple links to news stories regarding law-abiding citizens suddenly losing their minds in anger and shooting someone. Could it happen? Sure. They could also go nuts and stab somebody. Drive their car into a crowd. Set someone's house on fire. Does it happen often enough that taking guns away from ALL citizens is warranted? I don't think so. Show me data that says otherwise. And go ahead and ban carrying knives, car keys and matches too then, because all are sometimes used as weapons in crimes of passion.

Removing guns from the hands of lawfully-armed people does NOT prevent crime. It only makes criminals better armed than their victims, because criminals don't follow gun laws. And yeah, they show up in grocery stores, convenience stores, offices, schools, parks...even in the nice parts of town. The idea that a grocery store is some special protected place where one is completely safe from crime is silly.

Here's my token example of 1) A man deterring murderers by displaying his gun (in his home) and 2) Criminals killing unarmed people with knives.

Dartmouth Murders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ah!!! You're a fellow Hokie!!!! So am I!

Good news- Virginia law currently does not prohibit CCW on its public school property.

**Jiro** · 10-25-2011, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Any deaths at all? Sure. You think those CCW or OC never get used? That is tantamount to saying the death penalty reduces crime.

Really? Got a source to back your claim that some of deaths was caused by CCW/OC. And no I'm not referring to dead assailants. Only innocent people.

**Jiro** · 10-25-2011, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

I guess the old expression, ignorance is no excuse for not following the law missed you, huh?

You could say that for those who support gun ban law but I have never heard of any stupidity nor ignorance shown by CCW/OC holders in public. And I have never heard of any innocent being killed or injured in public by CCW/OC holders.

**Jiro** · 10-25-2011, 09:25 PM

You recently spent some time in Vermont - one of only 2 states that do not require any firearm license. Basically 100% gun-friendly state. How did it go? Did you encounter a Charles Bronson vigilante? A fool walking around with pistol in his pants like he's got something to prove? Anything?

jillio · 10-25-2011, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

Really? Got a source to back your claim that some of deaths was caused by CCW/OC. And no I'm not referring to dead assailants. Only innocent people.

How do you know they were not innocent if they are dead?

10-25-2011, 09:25 PM	#179 (permalink)
Jiro Aparecium Deletrius Legil Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: The Soprano State Posts: 60,439	You recently spent some time in Vermont - one of only 2 states that do not require any firearm license. Basically 100% gun-friendly state. How did it go? Did you encounter a Charles Bronson vigilante? A fool walking around with pistol in his pants like he's got something to prove? Anything? __________________ - Don't forget to buy Jiro's Special Edition Sunglasses for $19.95

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10-25-2011, 06:33 PM	#161 (permalink)
Reba Granny Terp Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: South Carolina Posts: 39,112	The laws concerning "no firearms" signs are very specific. For South Carolina: SECTION 23-31-235. Sign requirements. (A) Notwithstanding any other provision of this article, any requirement of or allowance for the posting of signs prohibiting the carrying of a concealable weapon upon any premises shall only be satisfied by a sign expressing the prohibition in both written language interdict and universal sign language. (B) All signs must be posted at each entrance into a building where a concealable weapon permit holder is prohibited from carrying a concealable weapon and must be: (1) clearly visible from outside the building; (2) eight inches wide by twelve inches tall in size; (3) contain the words “NO CONCEALABLE WEAPONS ALLOWED” in black one inch tall uppercase type at the bottom of the sign and centered between the lateral edges of the sign; (4) contain a black silhouette of a handgun inside a circle seven inches in diameter with a diagonal line that runs from the lower left to the upper right at a forty five degree angle from the horizontal; (5) a diameter of a circle; and (6) placed not less than forty inches and not more than sixty inches from the bottom of the building’s entrance door. (C) If the premises where concealable weapons are prohibited does not have doors, then the signs contained in subsection (A) must be: (1) thirty six inches wide by forty eight inches tall in size; (2) contain the words “NO CONCEALABLE WEAPONS ALLOWED” in black three inch tall uppercase type at the bottom of the sign and centered between the lateral edges of the sign; (3) contain a black silhouette of a handgun inside a circle thirty four inches in diameter with a diagonal line that is two inches wide and runs from the lower left to the upper right at a forty five degree angle from the horizontal and must be a diameter of a circle whose circumference is two inches wide; (4) placed not less than forty inches and not more than ninety six inches above the ground; (5) posted in sufficient quantities to be clearly visible from any point of entry onto the premises.

10-25-2011, 08:31 PM	#169 (permalink)
PoiToy Registered User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Virginia Posts: 39	I can only speak to my own motivations for carrying. I'm a 5'2", 125-lb mother of 2. I don't know karate and I frequently have a child on my hip (I can shoot one-handed if necessary but said kid would probably slow down my ninja moves). My mother was robbed in a Walmart parking lot (in the "nice" part of town). My best friend was raped outside of her workplace after leaving one evening (still light out). I don't live in a "bad" neighborhood, though I grew up in one. I often drive on long stretches of unlit, unpatrolled road. I'm a law-abiding citizen, though I sincerely wish I could carry in my school. I live near Virginia Tech. Maybe less people would have died there had at least one person been able to legally carry. There's no way of knowing that, but if the alarm is sounded while I'm in class that there's a shooter on campus, I'd damn sure like to have a weapon of my own, not to be a vigilante, but for protection. Somebody mentioned Columbine: An armed teacher at Columbine might have been useful, instead of only terrified. That's not to belittle the actions of any heroes from that day, only to say that less lives lost is ALWAYS better. I carry because, while I support the police and hope they will always be nearby to protect me, they cannot instantly appear at my side. Even if nothing prevents me from immediately making contact with them, there will always be a response time in which I or mine could be injured, raped or murdered. I hope I never need my car insurance, fire alarms or home security system (haven't yet). But I bought them to protect myself and my family. I hope I never, ever have to fire a weapon at another human being. But I bought and carry it for the same reason. Because shit happens and the difference between being dead or alive (in any situation) is often being prepared. I too would love to see multiple links to news stories regarding law-abiding citizens suddenly losing their minds in anger and shooting someone. Could it happen? Sure. They could also go nuts and stab somebody. Drive their car into a crowd. Set someone's house on fire. Does it happen often enough that taking guns away from ALL citizens is warranted? I don't think so. Show me data that says otherwise. And go ahead and ban carrying knives, car keys and matches too then, because all are sometimes used as weapons in crimes of passion. Removing guns from the hands of lawfully-armed people does NOT prevent crime. It only makes criminals better armed than their victims, because criminals don't follow gun laws. And yeah, they show up in grocery stores, convenience stores, offices, schools, parks...even in the nice parts of town. The idea that a grocery store is some special protected place where one is completely safe from crime is silly. Here's my token example of 1) A man deterring murderers by displaying his gun (in his home) and 2) Criminals killing unarmed people with knives. Dartmouth Murders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

10-25-2011, 08:55 PM	#170 (permalink)
jillio Banned Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 60,296	I have a token example of the deaths of innocent people from the availability of firearms. Check the CDC stats.