'Open Carry' Law Contoversy: Gun Owner Cited - Page 5

**deafskeptic** · 10-25-2011, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Check the prisons. They are full of people who were law abiding all their lives, and then committed a crime of passion.

I believe Jean Harris is the most famous example of someone who committed a crime of passion.

I seem to be obsessed with true crime.

jillio · 10-25-2011, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

so what they would be charged with? what's the criminal charge called?

I am not an attorney, so I do not know the specific charge that would be leveled. However, I do know that if you carry a gun into an establishment with a no gun rule posted, you are in violation of the law.

Think, Jiro...this guy was just arrested despite an open carry law.

**Jiro** · 10-25-2011, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

I am not an attorney, so I do not know the specific charge that would be leveled. However, I do know that if you carry a gun into an establishment with a no gun rule posted, you are in violation of the law.

Think, Jiro...this guy was just arrested despite an open carry law.

Arrested? He was never arrested. How can he be arrested for something that is legal? The establishments did not have "NO GUN ALLOWED" policy. It was some overly-panicky person calling a cop on him.

He was given a citation for

Quote:

The police officer cited Kirby under the law that says it is wrong to carry a weapon if it “manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.”

and we both know it's bullshit and it can be easily thrown out in court.

**Jiro** · 10-25-2011, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

I believe Jean Harris is the most famous example of someone who committed a crime of passion.

I seem to be obsessed with true crime.

thank you for proving my point that most of "crime of passion" occurred at home, not in public area. if you know of any other recent "crime of passion" where it involves shooting in public area... please let me know and how many such incidents have occurred for the past few years.

jillio · 10-25-2011, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

Arrested? He was never arrested. How can he be arrested for something that is legal? The establishments did not have "NO GUN ALLOWED" policy. It was some overly-panicky person calling a cop on him.

He was given a citation for

and we both know it's bullshit and it can be easily thrown out in court.

I don't know anything of the kind. So they didn't handcuff him and take him to jail before telling him he had to appear in court. He would not have a citation and a court date if he had been behaving on a completely legal manner.

jillio · 10-25-2011, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

thank you for proving my point that most of "crime of passion" occurred at home, not in public area. if you know of any other recent "crime of passion" where it involves shooting in public area... please let me know and how many such incidents have occurred for the past few years.

Like I said...check the prisons. People are shot during crimes of passion in public areas all the time, Jiro.

**Reba** · 10-25-2011, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

...Problem is - lot of states allow private gun owners to sell their guns to a person. In my state - any gun given to me must come from FFL proxy.

Our state allows private sales.

Quote:

...So bottom line - don't drink and carry. Lot simpler that way.

Absolutely.

**Jiro** · 10-25-2011, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

I don't know anything of the kind. So they didn't handcuff him and take him to jail before telling him he had to appear in court. He would not have a citation and a court date if he had been behaving on a completely legal manner.

I've already checked several sources. He was given a citation. No arrest was made. It's quite clear that it's a bullshit ticket. Not every citation requires court date nor an arrest.

Look at the OP and re-read it. Do you believe he was acting in a threatening manner in public?

**Jiro** · 10-25-2011, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Like I said...check the prisons. People are shot during crimes of passion in public areas all the time, Jiro.

How many is "all the time"? 10 cases in 10 years?

**Reba** · 10-25-2011, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Dangerous area is pretty subjective. It would still appear to be looking for an opportunity to play vigilante.

Dangerous as in high crime rate; neighborhood in the news every week.

How would you know a person's motivation?

jillio · 10-25-2011, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

I've already checked several sources. He was given a citation. No arrest was made. It's quite clear that it's a bullshit ticket. Not every citation requires court date nor an arrest.

Look at the OP and re-read it. Do you believe he was acting in a threatening manner in public?

Ummm, Jiro: what do you think being given a citation means? It means you are being cited for an illegal activity. Speeding citations are an indication of breaking the legal speed limit.

I don't know. I wasn't there. Evidently, people who were there think he was. It does not bear well for him that he had been involved in an incident at another public place the day before.

**Jiro** · 10-25-2011, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Dangerous area is pretty subjective. It would still appear to be looking for an opportunity to play vigilante.

People like Charlie Bronson? That only happens in movie, not real life.

**Reba** · 10-25-2011, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

College football, booze, and a gun. Now there's a good combination.

Huh? I posted reasons for NOT drinking booze at the bar.

"...There are many gun owners who might want to go to a restaurant just to eat and not drink alcohol.

I guess there are people who go to a bar to socialize with their friends. I know that sports bars are popular here, especially when college games are on.

Lots of people don't drink every time they go to a bar. People on a 12-step program, designated drivers, people taking meds that don't mix with alcohol, pregnant women, etc."

**Jiro** · 10-25-2011, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Ummm, Jiro: what do you think being given a citation means? It means you are being cited for an illegal activity. Speeding citations are an indication of breaking the legal speed limit.

Right and he's still innocent until proven guilty in the court of law. We all know that it's cooked up just to get a gun off his hands. I haven't been able to find any latest news on it.

Officer does not have any authority to criminalize him

jillio · 10-25-2011, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

People like Charlie Bronson? That only happens in movie, not real life.

No, Charlie Bronson was a vigilante. I am talking about people committing crimes of passion. And it happens in real life on a daily basis.

Let me pull up an extreme case of what can be termed a crime of passion, as vindication was the heart of the matter: Columbine. That was a very public place.

**Reba** · 10-25-2011, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

funny thing is that in NYC - Dunkin' Donut has a sign "NO FIREARM ALLOWED IN THIS PREMISE" (or similar message).

um..... who carries gun in NYC? lol it's impossible to get a CCW permit unless you're Donald Trump.

Cops carry guns AND eat doughnuts.

jillio · 10-25-2011, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

Right and he's still innocent until proven guilty in the court of law. We all know that it's cooked up just to get the guns off his hands. I haven't been able to find any latest news on it.

There may be a very good reason why the gun needs to be taken out of his hands. It certainly sounds as if his attitude is representative of a person who thinks they have something to prove.

jillio · 10-25-2011, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Dangerous as in high crime rate; neighborhood in the news every week.

How would you know a person's motivation?

Motivation can be implied through behavior and attitude.

But I'll ask you the same. How would you know that their motivation was completely good?

**Reba** · 10-25-2011, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

They are covering their butt and enforcing their right. People without a CCW might attempt to bring a firearm into the establishment.

Ah, like an armed robber without a CCW? Yes, that sign would definitely stop an armed robber.

**deafskeptic** · 10-25-2011, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

No, Charlie Bronson was a vigilante. I am talking about people committing crimes of passion. And it happens in real life on a daily basis.

Let me pull up an extreme case of what can be termed a crime of passion, as vindication was the heart of the matter: Columbine. That was a very public place.

I never thought of Columbine as a crime of passion...

**Reba** · 10-25-2011, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Motivation can be implied through behavior and attitude.

But I'll ask you the same. How would you know that their motivation was completely good?

I don't automatically assume someone carrying concealed is a vigilante wannabe. I've talked with many permitted carriers, and they have all said that having an armed confrontation is the last thing they want.

Self-defense isn't vigilantism.

jillio · 10-25-2011, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Ah, like an armed robber without a CCW? Yes, that sign would definitely stop an armed robber.

I see you failed to grasp the concept as well. There is a legal premise behind posting the sign, and it really isn't that difficult to figure out what that might be. Unless, of course, you simply don't want to.

**Jiro** · 10-25-2011, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

No, Charlie Bronson was a vigilante. I am talking about people committing crimes of passion. And it happens in real life on a daily basis.

if you backtrack - you'll see that we were talking about a vigilante prowling in dangerous trying to be a superhero. Crime of Passion was on other post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Let me pull up an extreme case of what can be termed a crime of passion, as vindication was the heart of the matter: Columbine. That was a very public place.

Columbine? Crime of Passion? Let's not kid ourself... You know very well that "crime of passion" mainly refers to love gone wrong between 2 lovers.

and beside - why are you referring to Columbine? It's illegal to bring firearms to school property and it's illegal for children to carry or operate gun without adult supervision. Why do you keep referring to criminals and not law-abiding armed citizens?

You are basically proving our points that we need to protect ourselves from criminals who can illegally obtain firearms and we legally can't.

**Jiro** · 10-25-2011, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Motivation can be implied through behavior and attitude.

But I'll ask you the same. How would you know that their motivation was completely good?

Thought Police, I see... You must be a big fan of Minority Report.

Here's how I know - I don't know and I don't care but I'd like to know I can protect myself against those with evil intention.

jillio · 10-25-2011, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

I don't automatically assume someone carrying concealed is a vigilante wannabe. I've talked with many permitted carriers, and they have all said that having an armed confrontation is the last thing they want.

Self-defense isn't vigilantism.

Neither do I. But people carrying in certain places with no valid reason for doing so leave themselves open to the suspicion. Particularly when saying things like "but the grocery store was in a bad area."

**Reba** · 10-25-2011, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafskeptic

I never thought of Columbine as a crime of passion...

Me either. The Columbine attack was premeditated and planned, which goes against the definition of crime of passion.

From legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com :

"crime of passion n. a defendant's excuse for committing a crime due to sudden anger or heartbreak, in order to eliminate the element of "premeditation." This usually arises in murder or attempted murder cases, when a spouse or sweetheart finds his/her "beloved" having sexual intercourse with another and shoots or stabs one or both of the coupled pair. To make this claim the defendant must have acted immediately upon the rise of passion, without the time for contemplation or allowing for "a cooling of the blood." It is sometimes called the "Law of Texas" since juries in that state are supposedly lenient to cuckolded lovers who wreak their own vengeance. The benefit of eliminating premeditation is to lessen the provable homicide to manslaughter with no death penalty and limited prison terms. An emotionally charged jury may even acquit the impassioned defendant. (See: murder, manslaughter)"

**Reba** · 10-25-2011, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Neither do I. But people carrying in certain places with no valid reason for doing so leave themselves open to the suspicion. Particularly when saying things like "but the grocery store was in a bad area."

It depends on what you mean by "no valid reason."

jillio · 10-25-2011, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

Thought Police, I see... You must be a big fan of Minority Report.

Here's how I know - I don't know and I don't care but I'd like to know I can protect myself against those with evil intention.

Nope. Has nothing to do with thought policing. Has to do with proven ways of predicting future behavior based on past and present behavior and attitudes. It's called science and math. You know, the study of patterns and probabilities, and all that boring stuff.

**Jiro** · 10-25-2011, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

I see you failed to grasp the concept as well. There is a legal premise behind posting the sign, and it really isn't that difficult to figure out what that might be. Unless, of course, you simply don't want to.

A posted sign is not a matter of legality. It's just a store policy. "Legal" is referring to law created by government, not private business. I've never heard of a person getting arrested for breaking a store rule

It's illegal to carry a gun into any government building such as municipal court because it's a law and you can get arrested for it.

It's not illegal to carry a gun into any private establishment and you can get banished from it if there is a sign posted on wall prohibiting firearm on premise.

**deafskeptic** · 10-25-2011, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Me either. The Columbine attack was premeditated and planned, which goes against the definition of crime of passion.

From legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com :

"crime of passion n. a defendant's excuse for committing a crime due to sudden anger or heartbreak, in order to eliminate the element of "premeditation." This usually arises in murder or attempted murder cases, when a spouse or sweetheart finds his/her "beloved" having sexual intercourse with another and shoots or stabs one or both of the coupled pair. To make this claim the defendant must have acted immediately upon the rise of passion, without the time for contemplation or allowing for "a cooling of the blood." It is sometimes called the "Law of Texas" since juries in that state are supposedly lenient to cuckolded lovers who wreak their own vengeance. The benefit of eliminating premeditation is to lessen the provable homicide to manslaughter with no death penalty and limited prison terms. An emotionally charged jury may even acquit the impassioned defendant. (See: murder, manslaughter)"

I'm interested in jillio's reasoning behind that. I do have a good idea why she might think it's a crime of passion. It's just not the lover's kind of passion.

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