'Open Carry' Law Contoversy: Gun Owner Cited - Page 17

***naisho*** · 10-27-2011, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Proportionately, they are just as diverse. edited:UMMM...this is 2011. Your census info is a decade old.

Tell them to hurry up then if you want new changes.

I'm sure it doesn't vastly change, the USA 2001 and 2011 hasn't made dramatic changes in 10 years. I would know since I do sociology and social psychology.

The last time UK took this census was in 2001. They're working on 2011 and it's not done yet.

**Reba** · 10-27-2011, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say "yeah". His attitude would put him at risk. I would say that my behavior in such a neighborhood is far different than Jiro's would be. I don't see threat around every corner so I don't slink around in fear, nor do I try to be a bad guy.

How do you know that Jiro would "slink around in fear" or "try to be a bad guy?" That's rather presumptuous.

Quote:

The most I ever get from the young men congregating on the corner, or the gang member walking down the street, is a "Wassup." I don't see that as a threat. I simply say, "Not much" and keep on walking. Guess what...they do the same.

How do you know what Jiro would say or do? Shouldn't you let him speak for himself?

jillio · 10-27-2011, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naisho

Just saying that it's not the same as the USA because they're not of the same ethnicity, they might not share the same culture and values on how to approach gun ownership and controversy. Ethnicity does play a major role in how one views these things and how laws are enacted.

So, you are saying that different ethnicities constitute different levels of threat and violence based on their ethnicity?

Careful, there.

You are missing something. Most of the ethhicities included in census information have been in a country for more than a generation, and have generally adopted that country's social values.

jillio · 10-27-2011, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

How do you know that Jiro would "slink around in fear" or "try to be a bad guy?" That's rather presumptuous.

How do you know what Jiro would say or do? Shouldn't you let him speak for himself?

Because he has demonstrated exactly how frightened he is in his own words in his relpies. You really think people don't notice things like that?

He did speak for himself. He said he would "shit his pants".

Steinhauer · 10-27-2011, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheWriteAlex

I lived in London for a semester. The "bobbies" are the nicest and most helpful people. This was in 2003, right before the Iraq war. I attended the anti-war rally to Hyde Park. Nearly two million people, and the cops were as calm and friendly as you can imagine, and not one of them had a gun.

The difference between police officers in America and Britain is that American cops look at the population as something that must be controlled, and therefore guns are necessary. The power struggle stems directly from the presence of the police officer's weapons, which intimidate the populace, no matter how necessary they are.

In Britain, the cops see themselves as public servants but still part of the general population. The number one job of a police officer in London is giving street directions to tourists. No joke.

**Jiro** · 10-27-2011, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

If you'd never put yourself in that situation, why do you need to carry a gun? Obviously, you have nothing to fear, or are afraid of boogey men around each corner.

who said I NEED to carry it?

and why do you NOT want me to carry a gun? Are you now dictating what I should do or not?

jillio · 10-27-2011, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naisho

Tell them to hurry up then if you want new changes.

I'm sure it doesn't vastly change, the USA 2001 and 2011 hasn't made dramatic changes in 10 years. I would know since I do sociology and social psychology.

The last time UK took this census was in 2001. They're working on 2011 and it's not done yet.

I guess you missed all of the predictions that show that by 2025, caucasions will be a minority in this country. Yes, dear, census data does change, and drastically at times. That is why they take new census.

jillio · 10-27-2011, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

who said I NEED to carry it?

and why do you NOT want me to carry a gun? Are you now dictating what I should do or not?

If you don't NEED it, why do you WANT it?

Steinhauer · 10-27-2011, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Proportionately, they are just as diverse. UMMM...this is 2011. Your census info is a decade old.

But what exactly is your point? That diversity makes people fearful and believe they need to carry guns?

I believe his point was that your statement about Great Britain and Canada being just as diverse was incorrect.

It had NOTHING to do with people being fearful in diverse situations.

Did you know that carrying a CCW is a right of any law abiding citizen, regardless of race, creed, gender, sexual orientation or religion?

**Reba** · 10-27-2011, 02:51 PM

"Diversity has run much further in America than Britain; there, as many as one in three citizens belong to one ethnic minority or another. In the UK, the figure is around 10%, or slightly more if groups such as the Irish are included."
Tom Clark looks at what effect ethnic diversity has on social harmony | Society | The Guardian

So, 33% in the USA compared to 10% in GB.

jillio · 10-27-2011, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

I believe his point was that your statement about Great Britain and Canada being just as diverse was incorrect.

It had NOTHING to do with people being fearful in diverse situations.

Did you know that carrying a CCW is a right of any law abiding citizen, regardless of race, creed, gender, sexual orientation or religion?

Let's let naisho clarify his meaning shall we. You misread far too often.

So...having a mental illness is a violation of the law? You guys really need to think before you speak.

And CCW is not a right. It is a privilege in certain states.

**Jiro** · 10-27-2011, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Because he has demonstrated exactly how frightened he is in his own words in his relpies. You really think people don't notice things like that?

He did speak for himself. He said he would "shit his pants".

there you go. so why would I or anybody act like Rambo or Charles Bronson? That's gonna get me killed.

Why would we pack a heat in the morning and talk to ourselves at mirror - "yea baby.... gonna find me a commie bastard. you talking to me? huh what? you talking to me? you talking to me? who me? me? you talking to me?"

What is silly vigilantism you speak of? Who does that?

**Jiro** · 10-27-2011, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

If you don't NEED it, why do you WANT it?

can't I have a choice pretty please? can't I decide that for myself?

jillio · 10-27-2011, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

"Diversity has run much further in America than Britain; there, as many as one in three citizens belong to one ethnic minority or another. In the UK, the figure is around 10%, or slightly more if groups such as the Irish are included."
Tom Clark looks at what effect ethnic diversity has on social harmony | Society | The Guardian

So, 33% in the USA compared to 10% in GB.

And, as I stated, the ethnicity in America is generally over a generation or more, which means enculturation. You can't just look at numbers, but of the demographics of the enthicity.

jillio · 10-27-2011, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

can't I have a choice pretty please? can't I decide that for myself?

Okay, why to do CHOOSE to carry the gun you WANT to carry? Sure you can decide it for yourself. Why are you evading the question?

jillio · 10-27-2011, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

there you go. so why would I or anybody act like Rambo or Charles Bronson? That's gonna get me killed.

Why would we pack a heat in the morning and talk to ourselves at mirror - "yea baby.... gonna find me a commie bastard. you talking to me? huh what? you talking to me? you talking to me? who me? me? you talking to me?"

What is silly vigilantism you speak of? Who does that?

Then why are you trying to portray yourself as a big, bad dude who will shoot any person that looks like they might pose a threat? Because that is exactly what you are portraying.

**Jiro** · 10-27-2011, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Raely means that it is highly improbable. Same reason I don't have hurricane insurance; chances of me suffering damage from a hurricane in my area is improbable. Just like you needing a gun for self defense is improbable. But, the research does show, and I have posted it on here prior, that a gun in the home is several times more likely to kill a family member than it is a stranger posing a threat. And the largest proportion of accidental deaths by firearms in the home is children. Risk is much greater than the probability that you will ever be placed in a position of needing a gun to protect yourself. Just as the cost of me carrying hurricane insurance is a cost greater than the benefit,

correct. you have a choice to decide to get hurricane insurance or not. and I should have a choice to carry a gun or not.

we should not be regulated by laws that's based on "improbability"

**TWA** · 10-27-2011, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Wow

You know, lately you really haven't been contributing anything to this site other than a lot of passive aggressive happy faces. Do you have anything to contribute to AD other than your snarkiness? If not, kindly piss off, okay?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

1. anything below 12-gauge has been proven ineffectual when it comes to home defense (do you know what 20 gauge for? bird shooting. plus it's cruel and inhumane to pump 20 pellets into his body when 12-gauge is just 5-8 pellets)
2. homeowners have been killed because of this.
3. even police officers and any gun experts recommend 12-gauge for home defense

so what should I use for home defense with 12 gauge? simple - use low-recoil 00 or 1 if you're that concerned. At that time when I bought a shotgun, a local police officer happened to be there to buy something and I asked him for recommendation in choosing shotgun shell type and I also expressed my concern about wall penetration and people's safety. He chuckled and strongly recommended 000.

I asked - "but.... isn't that overkill?"

He chuckled again and shrugged. Mind you - he's not just some street beat type. He is a "SWAT" so he obviously knows what he's talking about.

Lastly - when it comes to home defense, you should never.... ever..... ever.... use birdshot shell and anything below 00. Police officer has been killed by a crazed thug because he was using birdshot shell by mistake..... and officer emptied everything on him. After training and education, I came to realization that my fear for people's safety has been alleviated. I am 100% confident with my shotgun and 000. You're not gonna find any competent shotgun owner with anything less than 000 but I'm too nice so I have 00 too.

He chuckled at your concern for other individuals? Of course, he's a cop; He shoots to kill.

Anyone who continues to be a threat after taking a 16 gauge shot round is on PCP or something. You get someone like that, and no 9mm pistol is going to stop them either. Concerns about being inhumane? Cruel? Isn't that a contradiction to your logic? You think it's more humane to shoot them with a bigger, more destructive load? Um, okay . . .

Quote:

I've already discussed about this at great length with my friend who is ex-Rangers couple years ago. I've said what you said and in the end.... it's unfounded. your argument that is.

It's unfounded because you say it is? Oh wow, that's quite solid reasoning you got there, Jiro! Ohhhhhh, you mean it's unfounded because your Army friend told you? Ohhhhh, okay. Now I gotcha. I'll just settle for that and let you not address any of the points I made. You and your Ranger friend are obviously right!

**Jiro** · 10-27-2011, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Okay, why to do CHOOSE to carry the gun you WANT to carry? Sure you can decide it for yourself. Why are you evading the question?

for protection. what else?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Then why are you trying to portray yourself as a big, bad dude who will shoot any person that looks like they might pose a threat? Because that is exactly what you are portraying.

where? sounds like you are being hypervigilant and fearful.

**TWA** · 10-27-2011, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

for protection. what else?

where? sounds like you are being hypervigilant and fearful.

Classic deflection. Oh well, you tried, Jillio. You tried.

Steinhauer · 10-27-2011, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Let's let naisho clarify his meaning shall we. You misread far too often.

So...having a mental illness is a violation of the law? You guys really need to think before you speak.

And CCW is not a right. It is a privilege in certain states.

No maam, it is a constitutional right. You mis-read, and "read into" a lot of what people say far too much for you to be critical of others.

In regards to your little jab at "us guys" intellect .... um, you need to think before you post. Being mentally ill is not against the law, no. Having a mental illness and carrying a gun is.

And THAT ... is what "us guys" are talking about. Try and keep up.

**Jiro** · 10-27-2011, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheWriteAlex

He chuckled at your concern for other individuals? Of course, he's a cop; He shoots to kill.

He chuckled at my unfounded fear and lack of knowledge. He has experience, training, and knowledge to know what works and what doesn't work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheWriteAlex

Anyone who continues to be a threat after taking a 16 gauge shot round is on PCP or something. You get someone like that, and no 9mm pistol is going to stop them either.

I don't think you understand the difference between 16-gauge and 9mm when it comes to home defense. Both weapons are typically ineffective. That's why 12-gauge is considered the best home defense weapon.

Why? In most home invasion cases - you'll never have to shoot 12-gauge shotgun. Just cock it and trust me - when he hears that, he's not going to stick around and play a bluff game with you

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheWriteAlex

Concerns about being inhumane? Cruel? Isn't that a contradiction to your logic? You think it's more humane to shoot them with a bigger, more destructive load? Um, okay . . .

yes. when I shoot, it's shoot to kill.

But you.... he's going to survive 16-gauge and that's just cruel because doctors will have to spend several hours to pick hundreds of pellets from his body. 16-gauge is not designed to kill a human being, only birds. it's a very survival injury. I equate it with Iraqi torture. that's sick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheWriteAlex

It's unfounded because you say it is? Oh wow, that's quite solid reasoning you got there, Jiro! Ohhhhhh, you mean it's unfounded because your Army friend told you? Ohhhhh, okay. Now I gotcha. I'll just settle for that and let you not address any of the points I made. You and your Ranger friend are obviously right!

because my argument (similar to yours in previous post) was unfounded and did not have any substantial backing. It's just bunch of concocted hypothetical scenarios that either rarely happened or never happened.

Like I said - after months of training and education.... I fully understand my friend's and officer's argument.

**Reba** · 10-27-2011, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

...On most cases - you'll never have to shoot 12-gauge shotgun in case of home invasion. Just cock it and trust me - when he hears that, he's not going to stick around and play a bluff game with you

Just hope he's not deaf.

Quote:

... he's going to survive 16-gauge and that's just cruel because doctors will have to spend several hours to pick hundreds of pellets from his body...

If the intruder meant to harm me or my loved ones, then boo-hoo if he needs to have pellets picked out.

**Jiro** · 10-27-2011, 03:26 PM

oh one more thing -

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheWriteAlex

Anyone who continues to be a threat after taking a 16 gauge shot round is on PCP or something. You get someone like that, and no 9mm pistol is going to stop them either.

Precisely!!!! Why use 9mm or 16-gauge and play CRAP game with your life?

12-gauge with 000 will unequivocally, undoubtedly, and unquestionably take him down - 100% guarantee. Why would you use something ineffective for home defense? If he was wearing a coat, 16-gauge or 20-gauge is ineffective.

Since you are so concerned about wall penetration and some innocent people - then you should not get a gun at all. simple as that. Why not just get a big badass BB shotgun? Just take the orange tip off and it'll look real.

**Jiro** · 10-27-2011, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Just hope he's not deaf.

true but I'll make sure he can see my shotgun and I'll sign - "which?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

If the intruder meant to harm me or my loved ones, then boo-hoo if he needs to have pellets picked out.

lol I guess I'm too merciful to not let him go thru excruciating pain for years and be drowned in medical debt which would make him rob some more!

jillio · 10-27-2011, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

correct. you have a choice to decide to get hurricane insurance or not. and I should have a choice to carry a gun or not.

we should not be regulated by laws that's based on "improbability"

My having hurricane insurance even though there is a huge probability of me never receiving damage from a hurricane is not the same as having a gun. The probability that the gun will injure someone in your home, innocent person, btw, is far greater than you ever needing it for protection. My buying an unnecessary insurance policy harms, nor has the potential to harm, no one.

**TWA** · 10-27-2011, 03:35 PM

Man, do you even see what you're writing here?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

He chuckled at my unfounded fear and lack of knowledge. He has experience, training, and knowledge to know what works and what doesn't work.

I see what happened here. This has nothing to do with the cop's expertise or knowledge. Guns are guns and they are going to mess someone up, regardless. So basically you let him make you feel insecure for your correct concern about other people's safety? Now you want to be a big man like him and use the big boy's ammo.

Quote:

I don't think you understand the difference between 16-gauge and 9mm when it comes to home defense. Both weapons are typically ineffective. That's why 12-gauge is considered the best home defense weapon.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you own a 9mm handgun. No? So why do you have that? I thought it's for protection? If 9mm's are so ineffective, why is that usually that the size that a police officer carries?

Quote:

Why? On most home invasion cases - you'll never have to shoot 12-gauge shotgun. Just cock it and trust me - when he hears that, he's not going to stick around and play a bluff game with you

A thug cannot tell the difference between a 12g and 16g. Come on. You said you know about guns. You should know this.

Quote:

yes. when I shoot, it's shoot to kill.

But you.... he's going to survive 16-gauge and that's just cruel because doctors will have to spend several hours to pick hundreds of pellets from his body. 16-gauge is not designed to kill a human being, only birds. it's a very survival injury. I equate it with Iraqi torture. that's sick.

This is seriously the argument you are making? Seriously? In your mind you think it's more humane to kill the person than to disable him (dramatically indeed, but that's the price he pays for entering your home. No?) Let's ask 10 hypothetical thugs that break into a home what they would rather be shot with. I'm sure they'd prefer the 16g and still be alive then be shot with a 12g 000 and have a hole blown through their chest.

Quote:

because my argument (similar to yours in previous post) was unfounded and did not have any substantial backing. It's just bunch of concocted hypothetical scenarios that either rarely happened or never happened.

Like I said - after months of training and education.... I fully understand my friend's and officer's argument.

For purposes of this argument, why in the world should your reasoning here be valid? You provide absolutely no counter to the points I brought up. Simply saying you have an Army Ranger friend (and just because he is/was a Ranger does not make him an expert on this, I'm sorry to say. You're appealing to false authority here).

Until you provide sound refutation to those points, which I am very interested to hear, by the way, I consider your position ridiculous and invalid.

jillio · 10-27-2011, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

for protection. what else?

where? sounds like you are being hypervigilant and fearful.

Protection from what? You admitted that you would not place yourself in a dangerous situation.

You also admitted that if you were confronted by a potentially dangerous individual, you would, and I quote, "shit your pants". That kind of fear is contradictory to having a firearm to protect yourself. You are more likely to shoot an innocent electric meter reader because you see some sort of threat that isn't there. Just like the guy I mentioned yesterday that killed his daughter in law because he thought she was an intruder.

jillio · 10-27-2011, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

He chuckled at my unfounded fear and lack of knowledge. He has experience, training, and knowledge to know what works and what doesn't work.

I don't think you understand the difference between 16-gauge and 9mm when it comes to home defense. Both weapons are typically ineffective. That's why 12-gauge is considered the best home defense weapon.

Why? In most home invasion cases - you'll never have to shoot 12-gauge shotgun. Just cock it and trust me - when he hears that, he's not going to stick around and play a bluff game with you

yes. when I shoot, it's shoot to kill.

But you.... he's going to survive 16-gauge and that's just cruel because doctors will have to spend several hours to pick hundreds of pellets from his body. 16-gauge is not designed to kill a human being, only birds. it's a very survival injury. I equate it with Iraqi torture. that's sick.

because my argument (similar to yours in previous post) was unfounded and did not have any substantial backing. It's just bunch of concocted hypothetical scenarios that either rarely happened or never happened.

Like I said - after months of training and education.... I fully understand my friend's and officer's argument.

See? Right there. You keep posting things that show that you think you have something to prove, and that your fear is disproportional to any threat you could ever receive. That is what is so scary about the thought of you having a gun. Of course, the other possibility is that you truly believe none of what you are saying, but are simply trying to present a big bad front to impress someone.

**Jiro** · 10-27-2011, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Then you don't go into neighborhoods that are dangerous, if you believe it only happens in movies. As I suspected, your knowlege is a bit limited, and therefore, your ability to judge a threat is limited.

that doesn't mean it will never happen to me. There were several shootings in just one year - only 15-25 minutes radius from my home. The worst one was execution type on 3 college students by a drunk guy. There was a hit-like job on broad daylight at McDonald just 15 min away in Brooklyn. mind you - please do not confuse this person with law-abiding citizen. this happened right here in NYC with gun ban law.

MCDONALD'S SHOOTING: Shocking scenes as man is gunned down in Brooklyn - YouTube

and... I've already had enough training and experience to be prepared for whatever will happen to me (almost). and you know what's the first thing I would do? run away. forrest gump style.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

I said people had no business using religious arguments to determine a legal principle. Stop trying to twist my words, or read with more comprehension, whichever it takes.

and you have no business using concocted scenarios and so-called mental diagnosis to tell people what to do and what not to do.

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10-27-2011, 02:51 PM	#490 (permalink)
Reba Granny Terp Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: South Carolina Posts: 39,122	"Diversity has run much further in America than Britain; there, as many as one in three citizens belong to one ethnic minority or another. In the UK, the figure is around 10%, or slightly more if groups such as the Irish are included." Tom Clark looks at what effect ethnic diversity has on social harmony \| Society \| The Guardian So, 33% in the USA compared to 10% in GB.