Stop Blaming Racism for the Failure of Black Parents - Page 3

sallylou · 10-26-2009, 03:50 PM

Sometimes older folks don't want to go live with their children. They don't want to be bothered by the grandchildren. Too much noise and confusion. I think that's very sad. If I'm lucky enough to have grandchildren, I want to be an integral part of their lives.

Jiro · 10-26-2009, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sallylou

Sometimes older folks don't want to go live with their children. They don't want to be bothered by the grandchildren. Too much noise and confusion. I think that's very sad. If I'm lucky enough to have grandchildren, I want to be an integral part of their lives.

that I understand. But what I meant is the younger generation's attitude toward their elders. it is opposite of what you said. They don't want their parents to live with them and they do not wanted to be burdened by them. I'm just deeply disturbed with that reasoning. As children - we are "burden" (not in a negative way) to our parents. They have to work like dog to feed us, shelter us, clothe us, rescue us, etc. And now this is what parents get???? appalling...

I'm happy to see many grandparents living with them especially in minority-dominated neighborhoods in NYC.

jillio · 10-26-2009, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sallylou

With the current divorce rate in the U.S., very few children are growing up with both of their biological parents. Not having both parents present is not a black problem. It's a societal problem.

Very true. Single parent homes is not a phenomenon limited by race. Differences in cultural values, however, do affect the way in which the negative effects of a single parent home may be mediated.

jillio · 10-26-2009, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

yep. You are right on the dot in your first paragraph. That applies for Latino population as well. The concept of "family" continues to hold strong especially in minorities. Even though I live in America far too long, I still continue to be appalled at American Caucasian's way to their family members especially the elders. We the minorities cannot fathom sending our elders to "community home". It's a foreign concept to us.

I cannot imagine sending my own parents to community home. It just does not register in my head. I do not mind having them living with us. why not?? more love in the house!!

Yes, I agree. And cross generational extended family involvement in a child's life is a great benefit to that child.

jillio · 10-26-2009, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdog

Thanks. I'll check it out next time I hit the library- probably tomorrow.

You're welcome. Lots of eye opening information in that particular book.

Reba · 10-26-2009, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

that I understand. But what I meant is the younger generation's attitude toward their elders. it is opposite of what you said. They don't want their parents to live with them and they do not wanted to be burdened by them. I'm just deeply disturbed with that reasoning. As children - we are "burden" (not in a negative way) to our parents. They have to work like dog to feed us, shelter us, clothe us, rescue us, etc. And now this is what parents get???? appalling...

I'm happy to see many grandparents living with them especially in minority-dominated neighborhoods in NYC.

My mom moved from CT to SC to live with us for several months during her last year of life. But she wanted to move back to CT because she missed the rest of her family. So she died in CT.

My dad didn't want to live with any family members until he was very ill. He moved from VA to CT. When he got to CT, he got worse and went straight to the Veterans hospital, and died within days. He didn't want to stay with us.

My father-in-law died of a heart attack at his home. My mother-in-law still lives alone in MI. Her health is bad. She refuses to leave her house. She won't move to SC to live with us. We have offered but she's not interested.

It's not always a case of adult children refusing to take in their parents. Many parents want to maintain their independence or stay in familiar surroundings.

sallylou · 10-26-2009, 08:23 PM

Very often, older people don't want to admit that the are having health issues. It's hard for a person to leave a home that they've lived in for decades. I understand that but it's frustrating when you want to help.

Reba · 10-26-2009, 08:23 PM

For FYI:

Stats on births to unmarried women:

Quote:

Key findings
Data from the Natality Data Sets, National Vital Statistics System (NVSS)

• Childbearing by unmarried women has resumed a steep climb since 2002.

• Births to unmarried women totaled 1,714,643 in 2007, 26% more than in 2002. Nearly 4 in 10 U.S. births were to unmarried women in 2007.

• Birth rates have risen considerably for unmarried women in their twenties and over, while declining or changing little for unmarried teenagers.

• Nonmarital birth rates are highest for Hispanic women followed by black women. Rates for non-Hispanic white and Asian or Pacific Islander women are much lower.

• Most births to teenagers (86% in 2007) are nonmarital, but 60% of births to women 20–24 and nearly one-third of births to women 25–29 were nonmarital in 2007.

• Teenagers accounted for just 23% of nonmarital births in 2007, down steeply from 50% in 1970.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db18.pdf

sallylou · 10-26-2009, 08:27 PM

Let's not forget that these women are not getting pregnant alone. I have an male acquaintance who has two children by two different mothers who had to sue for paternity to get support. Dudes, use a condom!

jillio · 10-26-2009, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sallylou

Let's not forget that these women are not getting pregnant alone. I have an male acquaintance who has two children by two different mothers who had to sue for paternity to get support. Dudes, use a condom!

Right. Which is another sociological factor that must be considered when talking about single parent homes, and why the home is single parented.

The above statistics can also be misleading. There are also more Caucasions in the US than the monoritiy groups. The percentage of out of wedlock Caucasion infants would also be higher by group when that is factored in. Nor do these stats figure in the number of children being raised in a single parent home as a result of divorce, death, or inequitable incarceration.

Like I said before, the issue is far more complicated that whether or not the child was born out of wedlock, and whether or not "bad parenting" is the sole cause of increased violence. It would be nice if it could be reduced to something so simplicitic, but it cannot.

Jiro · 10-26-2009, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

My mom moved from CT to SC to live with us for several months during her last year of life. But she wanted to move back to CT because she missed the rest of her family. So she died in CT.

My dad didn't want to live with any family members until he was very ill. He moved from VA to CT. When he got to CT, he got worse and went straight to the Veterans hospital, and died within days. He didn't want to stay with us.

My father-in-law died of a heart attack at his home. My mother-in-law still lives alone in MI. Her health is bad. She refuses to leave her house. She won't move to SC to live with us. We have offered but she's not interested.

It's not always a case of adult children refusing to take in their parents. Many parents want to maintain their independence or stay in familiar surroundings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sallylou

Very often, older people don't want to admit that the are having health issues. It's hard for a person to leave a home that they've lived in for decades. I understand that but it's frustrating when you want to help.

yes it's because of the mentality that has been passed on from generation to generation. For us - the elders do not worry over such situation because they know they will be taken care of and they will be in constant company with family members. This has been like that for thousand years for us.

Not that Caucasian way is wrong on how they take care of their elders. It's just simply a cultural difference.

Reba · 10-26-2009, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

yes it's because of the mentality that has been passed on from generation to generation. For us - the elders do not worry over such situation because they know they will be taken care of and they will be in constant company with family members. This has been like that for thousand years for us.

My family had a "mentality" of generations taking care of each other.

My maternal grandmother lived with my mother until she died.

My paternal great-grandmother lived with my grandmother until she died. My grandmother was in good health so she lived in her own home until she had a sudden heartache and died.

My mother-in-law's mother lived with her until she died.

None of my elderly relatives were refused a home. They knew we would love to take care of them. They made their own choices.

If they lived with us it would mean leaving behind other family members, friends, and familiar surroundings. They didn't/don't want to do that.

We can't tackle them and drag them into our homes.

Jiro · 10-26-2009, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

My family had a "mentality" of generations taking care of each other.

My maternal grandmother lived with my mother until she died.

My paternal great-grandmother lived with my grandmother until she died. My grandmother was in good health so she lived in her own home until she had a sudden heartache and died.

My mother-in-law's mother lived with her until she died.

None of my elderly relatives were refused a home. They knew we would love to take care of them. They made their own choices.

If they lived with us it would mean leaving behind other family members, friends, and familiar surroundings. They didn't/don't want to do that.

We can't tackle them and drag them into our homes.

It would be nice if rest of the people do same especially those suburbans.

jillio · 10-26-2009, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

yes it's because of the mentality that has been passed on from generation to generation. For us - the elders do not worry over such situation because they know they will be taken care of and they will be in constant company with family members. This has been like that for thousand years for us.

Not that Caucasian way is wrong on how they take care of their elders. It's just simply a cultural difference.

Agreed. Cultural differences. You come from a collectivistic culture that values the experience and wisdom of the elder members. Americans are an independent culture that does not include those values.

Reba · 10-26-2009, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

It would be nice if rest of the people do same especially those suburbans.

I know that there are some adult children who physically can't take care of very ill parents. Some elderly need constant medical care. Some are very hard to keep safe because they have Alzheimer's or dementia. Some of the "children" have their own physical problems because they aren't young themselves. I have some friends, the husband and wife in their late 50's, both have bad backs and diabetes. The grandmother lived with them for several years until her health got so bad (cancer and diabetes) that she had to be hospitalized, and then she died. If she had recovered enough to go home again, I don't know how her "children" would have taken care of her. Neither one of them could lift her.

I know other families who had a parent with Alzheimer's or dementia. They were a danger to other people and themselves. They wandered during the night, set fires, struck other people, etc.

Some older people prefer "assisted living" condos that include lots of friends, restaurant quality meals, social activities, field trips, in-house medical care, amenities, etc. Not all do but some.

I wouldn't want to judge other people's decisions about parent care, especially if I don't know all the facts.

I know two other families ("Caucasian") who have each had a grandparent living with them for decades, thru several moves.

I agree that it's very sad when elders are in places that don't take care of them, and they don't have frequent visits from relatives.

Jiro · 10-26-2009, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

I know that there are some adult children who physically can't take care of very ill parents. Some elderly need constant medical care. Some are very hard to keep safe because they have Alzheimer's or dementia. Some of the "children" have their own physical problems because they aren't young themselves. I have some friends, the husband and wife in their late 50's, both have bad backs and diabetes. The grandmother lived with them for several years until her health got so bad (cancer and diabetes) that she had to be hospitalized, and then she died. If she had recovered enough to go home again, I don't know how her "children" would have taken care of her. Neither one of them could lift her.

I know other families who had a parent with Alzheimer's or dementia. They were a danger to other people and themselves. They wandered during the night, set fires, struck other people, etc.

Some older people prefer "assisted living" condos that include lots of friends, restaurant quality meals, social activities, field trips, in-house medical care, amenities, etc. Not all do but some.

I wouldn't want to judge other people's decisions about parent care, especially if I don't know all the facts.

I know two other families ("Caucasian") who have each had a grandparent living with them for decades, thru several moves.

I agree that it's very sad when elders are in places that don't take care of them, and they don't have frequent visits from relatives.

I completely understand the reasons for not being able to take care of them. Your last statement (red bold) is exactly what I'm appalled about. You've said it quite succinctly and clearly. That is the vibe I get for general American Caucasian families especially suburb/city dwellers. It is the stereotypical image we (the Asians) have for Americans.

jillio · 10-26-2009, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

I completely understand the reasons for not being able to take care of them. Your last statement (red bold) is exactly what I'm appalled about. You've said it quite succinctly and clearly. That is the vibe I get for general American Caucasian families especially suburb/city dwellers. It is the stereotypical image we (the Asians) have for Americans.

I find it ironic that people are applying the very same logic to violence. If one doesn't want to judge a person's decision to care for their elders without the entire story, why would you agree with the claim that bad parenting in the black community is responsible for all the violence without having all of the facts?

Doesn't make sense, does it?

DURAY · 10-29-2009, 12:41 AM

dd, so true. Hoover's Shelby and Larry Edler wrote columns and columns with stats at Conservative News, Issues, Political Cartoons, Blogs, Talk Radio, Commentary from Townhall Conservatives The Heritage Foundation - Conservative Policy Research and Analysis also.

NCJRS at DOJ included lotta statistics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdog

I'm curious- what would be the process by which one would use absolute figures to determine causality (as opposed to a mere correlation)?

I partially answered that question when I said, "I think the Moynihan Report was right in its conclusions. Such high illegitimacy rates can really screw up any demographic. Too bad it was so un-PC in its time."

I don't think there's anything inherently different about blacks from anyone else. I find the explanation of the breakdown of the family structure to be the most convincing for the problems with crime, low SES, drugs, etc. among blacks. I doubt whites, Asians, or anyone else would do any better with 70% illegitimacy rates and so many of the single mothers still being in their teenage years. That certainly doesn't rule out other factors (like abysmal education), but that one's a biggie.

sallylou · 10-29-2009, 09:55 AM

Sometimes those old people who don't get any visits from family abused the family members when they were children. In some cases, the old people switch from physical and sexual abuse to verbal and emotional abuse. Don't judge the people without knowing the circumstances.

rockin'robin · 10-29-2009, 02:45 PM

I have a 66 yr. old sister that has gone to live with her daughter...her daughter emailed me and said...."Mom was a good mother....and I want to be a good daughter." My sister is in good health, and works part time....she was just "lonely" as her companion died several years ago...

As for myself, when it comes to the time I cannot live alone, then I will consider assisted living.....Many seniors are independent and do not wish to be a "burden" upon their children/grandchildren, etc. My own mother died when I was very young, so I have no knowledge of what it would be to take care of an eldery parent.

sallylou · 10-29-2009, 03:23 PM

Rocking Robin, I'm sorry that you lost your mom so early.

My grandfather was in assisted living and it was a good place for him. The problem was that when a person in assisted living starts to decline sharply, the other residents distance themselves. It's a protective reaction. It's painful to keep losing friends. I don't know how to solve that problem. Sending a person to an isolated nursing home is worse than leaving a person in assisted living. Maybe it's a good idea to take them to a relative's home at that point, assuming that the person is willing.

Beowulf · 10-29-2009, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sallylou

Rocking Robin, I'm sorry that you lost your mom so early.

My grandfather was in assisted living and it was a good place for him. The problem was that when a person in assisted living starts to decline sharply, the other residents distance themselves. It's a protective reaction. It's painful to keep losing friends. I don't know how to solve that problem. Sending a person to an isolated nursing home is worse than leaving a person in assisted living. Maybe it's a good idea to take them to a relative's home at that point, assuming that the person is willing.

That's true. My parents are almost 90 years old, and they live in such a community. However, when I visit (which I do weekly) and wheel them around the place, it makes a difference. I cannot imagine turning my parents loose to the wolves.

darkdog · 10-30-2009, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

Yep. I located said information in Climbing Jacob's Ladder, by Dr. Andrew Billingsly: chapters 10, 15, and 16. I have also done quite a bit a independent research on the topic, and have assimilated the knowledge. However, I will be more than happy to guide you to the journals that will contain said research and information.

Got the book here. The only thing I found that's any way related to your assertion is at the beginning of chapter 16 on page 334: "Most [single parents] are white, not black." Is that what you're referring to? Because that's quite different from what you asserted and I don't doubt it given the shear number of whites compared to blacks. That's not talking about per capita. Also, single parents includes divorcees, widows, etc.. We're talking about births where the mother is not married.

The CDC has data on it. It can be found here on page 6: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr57/nvsr57_12.pdf

For 2007, the data indicates that the illegitimacy rates among blacks is 71.6% while among whites, it's 27.8%. As for the rates of women giving birth out of wedlock, among blacks, it's about 51 per thousand black women, and among whites, it's about 17 per thousand white women. The total illegitimate births for blacks is about 449,000 and for whites, it's about 643,000.

According to that data, the number of illegitimate births per capita among blacks is much higher than among whites. However, the total number of illegitimate births among whites is higher than blacks.

jillio · 10-30-2009, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdog

Got the book here. The only thing I found that's any way related to your assertion is at the beginning of chapter 16 on page 334: "Most [single parents] are white, not black." Is that what you're referring to? Because that's quite different from what you asserted and I don't doubt it given the shear number of whites compared to blacks. That's not talking about per capita. Also, single parents includes divorcees, widows, etc.. We're talking about births where the mother is not married.

The CDC has data on it. It can be found here on page 6: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr57/nvsr57_12.pdf

For 2007, the data indicates that the illegitimacy rates among blacks is 71.6% while among whites, it's 27.8%. As for the rates of women giving birth out of wedlock, among blacks, it's about 51 per thousand black women, and among whites, it's about 17 per thousand white women. The total illegitimate births for blacks is about 449,000 and for whites, it's about 643,000.

According to that data, the number of illegitimate births per capita among blacks is much higher than among whites. However, the total number of illegitimate births among whites is higher than blacks.

There you go. The total number of illegitimate births is higher among whites. Single parent homes are also higher among whites. Yet, violence rates and incarcertation rates are higher among blacks. Looks like inequities going on to me. And, if you will read the other chapters and apply a little critical and objective thought, you will easily see that there are numerous sociological factors at work, not simply poor parenting practices. (And that last line was not intended to be critical, simply instructive.)

darkdog · 10-31-2009, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

There you go. The total number of illegitimate births is higher among whites.

That's not what you said at first: "...per capita, there are more illegitimate births in the Caucasion population than in the Black population."

So now you're talking about total number rather than per capita? That's not exactly a subtle nuance. Did you think I wouldn't notice? I'd go on and talk more about this, but what's the point?

Berry · 10-31-2009, 03:40 PM

Why is it when violence is discussed "out of wedlock" birthrates is discussed?

Why is it said that youth violence is escalating when I no longer hear of Saturday night gang wars?

Exactly what is a bad parent or a good parent? Should we first issue college degrees in child rearing and only allow those people who pass with a grade "C" or above to have children?

How is blaming Black parents for poor parenting going to appear like a non racist statement to someone who believes racism is a serious problem.

Why does this thread confuse me?

sallylou · 10-31-2009, 04:24 PM

Because the premise of this "Stop Blaming Racism for the Failure of Black Parents" thread is that black parents are failures. The premise assumes an unproven fact. It's a racist assumption. It's like the "When did you stop beating your wife?" question.

rockin'robin · 10-31-2009, 06:12 PM

What defines a "bad parent(s)"? No matter the race.

10-26-2009, 03:50 PM	#61 (permalink)
sallylou Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: My own private Idaho Posts: 2,098	Sometimes older folks don't want to go live with their children. They don't want to be bothered by the grandchildren. Too much noise and confusion. I think that's very sad. If I'm lucky enough to have grandchildren, I want to be an integral part of their lives. __________________ Happy holidays!

10-26-2009, 08:23 PM	#67 (permalink)
sallylou Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: My own private Idaho Posts: 2,098	Very often, older people don't want to admit that the are having health issues. It's hard for a person to leave a home that they've lived in for decades. I understand that but it's frustrating when you want to help. __________________ Happy holidays!

10-26-2009, 08:27 PM	#69 (permalink)
sallylou Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: My own private Idaho Posts: 2,098	Let's not forget that these women are not getting pregnant alone. I have an male acquaintance who has two children by two different mothers who had to sue for paternity to get support. Dudes, use a condom! __________________ Happy holidays!

10-29-2009, 09:55 AM	#79 (permalink)
sallylou Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: My own private Idaho Posts: 2,098	Sometimes those old people who don't get any visits from family abused the family members when they were children. In some cases, the old people switch from physical and sexual abuse to verbal and emotional abuse. Don't judge the people without knowing the circumstances. __________________ Happy holidays!

10-29-2009, 03:23 PM	#81 (permalink)
sallylou Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: My own private Idaho Posts: 2,098	Rocking Robin, I'm sorry that you lost your mom so early. My grandfather was in assisted living and it was a good place for him. The problem was that when a person in assisted living starts to decline sharply, the other residents distance themselves. It's a protective reaction. It's painful to keep losing friends. I don't know how to solve that problem. Sending a person to an isolated nursing home is worse than leaving a person in assisted living. Maybe it's a good idea to take them to a relative's home at that point, assuming that the person is willing. __________________ Happy holidays!

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10-29-2009, 02:45 PM	#80 (permalink)
rockin'robin Registered User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Jacksonville, Florida Posts: 2,787	I have a 66 yr. old sister that has gone to live with her daughter...her daughter emailed me and said...."Mom was a good mother....and I want to be a good daughter." My sister is in good health, and works part time....she was just "lonely" as her companion died several years ago... As for myself, when it comes to the time I cannot live alone, then I will consider assisted living.....Many seniors are independent and do not wish to be a "burden" upon their children/grandchildren, etc. My own mother died when I was very young, so I have no knowledge of what it would be to take care of an eldery parent.

10-31-2009, 03:40 PM	#86 (permalink)
Berry Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Oroville, Ca. Posts: 712	Why is it when violence is discussed "out of wedlock" birthrates is discussed? Why is it said that youth violence is escalating when I no longer hear of Saturday night gang wars? Exactly what is a bad parent or a good parent? Should we first issue college degrees in child rearing and only allow those people who pass with a grade "C" or above to have children? How is blaming Black parents for poor parenting going to appear like a non racist statement to someone who believes racism is a serious problem. Why does this thread confuse me? __________________ . Living life in the sandbox.

10-31-2009, 04:24 PM	#87 (permalink)
sallylou Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: My own private Idaho Posts: 2,098	Because the premise of this "Stop Blaming Racism for the Failure of Black Parents" thread is that black parents are failures. The premise assumes an unproven fact. It's a racist assumption. It's like the "When did you stop beating your wife?" question. __________________ Happy holidays!

10-31-2009, 06:12 PM	#88 (permalink)
rockin'robin Registered User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Jacksonville, Florida Posts: 2,787	What defines a "bad parent(s)"? No matter the race.

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