jillio

Exactly. Which is why I said the conservatives quoted in the article needed to study a little sociology.

Deafness

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Reba

We can't protect our children from everything but we certainly should protect them from as much as possible. We protect their bodies from disease, malnutrition, and injury by due diligence, so why shouldn't we protect them from moral and spiritual contamination and damage?

We don't let our kids swim in a sewer, eat from a garbage can, or play on the interstate highway. That doesn't mean they will never get sick or injured but we do what is reasonable to protect them. That's the same for protecting their hearts and minds.

Even computer nerds understand the GIGO principle.

shel90

I agree with you. However, it seems like people are looking to Obama to solve all the problems..that was what my question was based on. How can the govt step in if there are so many factors contributing to violence?

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Reba

Sometimes the best thing federal government can do is stay out of the way. Sometimes government causes more problems instead of solving them.

There is no President of any party that can solve America's social problems.

shel90

I think programs needs to be established to help families and their children instead of cutting them.

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Buffalo

GIGO - Garbage In, Garbage Out. Haven't heard that in a long time.

I have heard of a kid from good family that went bad. Why just one kid went bad while his siblings were still good? It is not because of bad parenting, so there must be something else going on with this kid. So why the blame on the poor parenting? It would be nice if there are programs that can help people out of their poverty, etc.

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jillio

I'm confused. Exactly how does the first paragraph relate to the phenomenon of violence and race?

jillio

Exactly. This is a multi-faceted problem. There is no single answer. To blame violence on poor parenting as the sole contibutor is way over simplifing the issue. It would be nice if it was as simple as one cause, one solution. But it isn't.

One must keep in mind, as well, that society is responsible, in large part, for determining parenting. A parent who is forced to work 2 jobs as a direct result of opportunity and pay disparities just to put food on the table does not have the time or the energy to devote to parenting as does the stay at home mom with the big suburban house and no financial concerns. Maslow's Heirarchy.

The best way to explain violence is to take a good look at Conflict Theory, and then apply it to the situation.

darkdog

According to the Justice Department, the homicide rate was about 7 times higher for blacks than whites, at least as of 2005.

Bureau of Justice Statistics Homicide trends in the U.S.: Trends by race

I think the Moynihan Report was right in its conclusions. Such high illegitimacy rates can really screw up any demographic. Too bad it was so un-PC in its time.

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kokonut

I agree, DD. Still is un-PC now.

jillio

That data leaves out the sociological factors involved in an escalated rate. In other words, it does not address the "why".

jillio

Doesn't have anything to do with being PC. It is a matter of looking at the issue from too narrow a perspective to explain it.

darkdog

Of course it doesn't. It's just that some people reading this thread might get the impression that violent crime is only slightly higher among blacks than among whites. In absolute terms (i.e. number of crimes committed), that may be true, but irrelevant. In relative terms (i.e. number of crimes committed per 100,000 people), it is not true unless one would consider a 600% difference a "slight rise".

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saywhatkid

Based on the title of this thread and article, I assume it was written by a Conservative, as I bolded to indicate, where applicable. The title itself caught my eye, since it seems to lay blame on Black parents. Not sure where all the documents are located that prove this as fact. Would be the same as me blaming you if your son uses drugs.

Another thing to consider here; since 1965, Democrat Presidents have been in office a total of 16 years, whereas Republican Presidents have been in office a total of 28 years. Is this strictly a problem for the Democrats to solve? Just thinking out loud here...

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deafskeptic

Agreed. I was offended at it being "declared" a black problem. It's something that affects all of us.

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deafskeptic

Good point.

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jillio

Absolute terms are extremely relevent when attempting to assign a causative factor.

And the data does leave out the sociological data necessary to come to a causative conclusion. Those statistics are based on crime committed and race only.

Cowpuppy

Economic factors affecting racial sociology. It's more rather about economic sociology than a race factor in itself. Blacks happen to be in that problematic category for economic reasons.
There are other racial grups with same problems.....they don't make up as large a percentile group.

jillio

Exactly. SES is an important consideration. Moreso than race, for all the minorities.

darkdog

An absolute figure is not a rate. A rate implies a ratio, or number of x per y. When someone asks about crime rates, why would you talk about absolute figures in your reply?

As such, they're useful in correcting a fallacy.

It may feel good to say that violent crime affects us all equally, but that's simply not true. If you're black in America, you're far more likely to get involved in violent crime or be a victim of violent crime than if you're white (most black crime being black-on-black).

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jillio

As I stated earlier, because absolute rates are important when attempting to assign a causative factor. The article states that the cause of violence in black families is poor parenting.

So, are you actually saying that simply being black makes you more prone to commit a violent crime? Or would you agree that SES, dispoprportiate opportunity, disproportionate punishment in the justice system, and numerous other factors are involved? It has been shown that 2 people of different races that are exposed to exactly the same conditions and environment are equally likely to be invovled in violent crime, and that race is not a factor in that likelihood. One is not criminal simply because of one's skin color.

In order for the hypothesis proposed in this article to be supported, we would also have to come to the conclusion that being black also puts you at greater risk for being a bad parent. Black = poor parenting = child involved in violent crime. Sorry, but that is simply not supported, and it is terribly oversimplified perspective of a complicated problem.

darkdog

I'm curious- what would be the process by which one would use absolute figures to determine causality (as opposed to a mere correlation)?

I partially answered that question when I said, "I think the Moynihan Report was right in its conclusions. Such high illegitimacy rates can really screw up any demographic. Too bad it was so un-PC in its time."

I don't think there's anything inherently different about blacks from anyone else. I find the explanation of the breakdown of the family structure to be the most convincing for the problems with crime, low SES, drugs, etc. among blacks. I doubt whites, Asians, or anyone else would do any better with 70% illegitimacy rates and so many of the single mothers still being in their teenage years. That certainly doesn't rule out other factors (like abysmal education), but that one's a biggie.

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sallylou

With the current divorce rate in the U.S., very few children are growing up with both of their biological parents. Not having both parents present is not a black problem. It's a societal problem.

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darkdog

As a child of divorced parents, I can attest to the fact that having divorced parents is a significant departure from the ideal. But at least my parents lived near each other so they were both influences in my life and they were both at points in their lives where they could provide for me financially. That's a pretty typical situation of latchkey children of divorcees. If I got to choose my lot in life, that would not be my first choice, but I would definitely choose it over having a single teenage mother on welfare with no father in sight.

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jillio

You do realize, don't you, that per captita, there are more illegitimate births in the Caucasion population than in the Black population?

Actually, low SES, disproportionate incarceration rates, disproportionate opportunity contribute to family breakdown. Family breakdown does not cause them.

jillio

African American culture also has ways of dealing with the issue of single parent homes. There are more extended family members in the household. A black child is more likely to be cared for by an extended family member than to end up in the foster care system. There are many other cultural insulators at play.

Had to edit, as I just saw the question you asked. Correlation is never used to determine cause. Coerrelation only determines some sort of a relationship.

darkdog

I am really interested in learning more about that. Can you point me to some statistics about that?

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jillio

Yep. I located said information in Climbing Jacob's Ladder, by Dr. Andrew Billingsly: chapters 10, 15, and 16. I have also done quite a bit a independent research on the topic, and have assimilated the knowledge. However, I will be more than happy to guide you to the journals that will contain said research and information.

Jiro

yep. You are right on the dot in your first paragraph. That applies for Latino population as well. The concept of "family" continues to hold strong especially in minorities. Even though I live in America far too long, I still continue to be appalled at American Caucasian's way to their family members especially the elders. We the minorities cannot fathom sending our elders to "community home". It's a foreign concept to us.

I cannot imagine sending my own parents to community home. It just does not register in my head. I do not mind having them living with us. why not?? more love in the house!!

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darkdog

Thanks. I'll check it out next time I hit the library- probably tomorrow.

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