Hillary for President! Vote? - Page 6

Liebling:-))) · 11-09-2007, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Who pays for the health insurance?

See my add post (too late to edit to add your post) and also response Tousi's question as well.

http://www.alldeaf.com/867479-post144.html

http://www.alldeaf.com/867506-post148.html

My employer and I pay 50% each for health insurance.

Liebling:-))) · 11-09-2007, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

. . . and that bill was vetoed because:

President Bush Visits Lancaster Chamber of Commerce and Industry, Discusses S-CHIP

President Bush supports a program that will take care of the health needs of poor children. He wants all the poor children to enroll. He does not want the program expanded to non-poor children because then there wouldn't be enough coverage for the actually poor children.

I don't agree to support poor children only with Medicaid. Everyone including adult, families and children should be treat equal, no matter either they are work or out of work.

US Health System Ranks Last Compared to Other Countries: Studies - CommonDreams.org You can check some links where the comments provided in those link.

Some US workers can't afford to join health insurance because they are too expensive - no wonder why there're over millions people don't have healthcare insurance when they are workers.

Foxrac · 11-09-2007, 09:10 AM

I'm with Liebling...

It's true about over million of people dont have insurance, plus health insurance at my workplace is so expensive, except for open enrollment but more limited time to find insurance for better price and I won't want go for it.

I'm support free medical center, known as universal health center, that what Canada, UK and other countries are offers that but I don't go to doctor so often, just like twice (if repeated for one more because occur at twice sometime) in 3-4 month due bad colds and need antibiotic because it don't sold in non-Rx area.

PowerON · 11-09-2007, 09:47 AM

no doctor would do for cheap labor. There are too many doctors who will not accept it.

And one major problem is... to have free medical is more like have a LONG line on listing.

fredfam1 · 11-09-2007, 10:53 AM

Leibling, now I am very curious. What are the attitudes in
general, of doctors towards patients over where you are?
Here in the US doctors often treat patients, (no matter what
their economic status) like this, "I am the doctor, I have all
authority and nothing you say is important or relavant" My
natriopathic doctor is not like this. But many regular doctors
are. It has been one of the frustrating things with our system.
Here is an example.

I take care of my elderly mom. Since I have been doing this
she has had 4 surgeries. Because she has a mechanical heart
valve she is on a blood thinner called coumadin. When she has
had surgeries in the past they gave her another short term
blood thinner after the surgery at the same time as restarting
her coumadin. This was supposed to be a saftey prevention
because coumadin takes a long time to build up in the body.
I told them she was reacting differently, (she was bleeding
through early and hemmoraging before her blood levels of
coumadin reached safe levels) I showed them research but
no one would listen. (a common problem here) She almost
died after each surgery. On the fourth surgery, (she got knocked
down by our goat and broke her arm) they had finally decided
that I was correct. She sailed through the surgery no problems.

Also with all the tax and fees and private ins taken out of your
check do you actually get to take any money home? Can your
two parent families afford to have one parent be a stay at home
with the children? Technically we shouldn't be able to afford
for me to stay home with a family of eight and less than $35,000
per year. (I do a lot of creative financing and bartering) But
is important to both my husband and I that one of us be home
to homeschool our brood. One thing I have noticed is that
it is difficult to get info about what really goes on in other
countries. Thanks

fredfam1 · 11-09-2007, 11:04 AM

I just read the above article which from the link you provide and there
is conflicting info. If you read the article I posted, It says that Brittan
ranks LAST in providing health care and that the waiting lines are
horrible. Yet the article you posted (and they were both current)
says Brittan ranks first. Both can not be true. In reading your
artical more carfully it appears that the info they got was not
from statistics but from interviews of doctors in the various
countries. I would doubt the accuracy of such a method of
determining health care quality.

Deafilmedia · 11-09-2007, 01:31 PM

Hillary won 2nd term Senate against other opponents who had no
political experience.

Reba · 11-09-2007, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

See my add post (too late to edit to add your post) and also response Tousi's question as well.

http://www.alldeaf.com/867479-post144.html

http://www.alldeaf.com/867506-post148.html

My employer and I pay 50% each for health insurance.

So it's not free.

Reba · 11-09-2007, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

I don't agree to support poor children only with Medicaid. Everyone including adult, families and children should be treat equal, no matter either they are work or out of work.

US Health System Ranks Last Compared to Other Countries: Studies - CommonDreams.org You can check some links where the comments provided in those link.

Some US workers can't afford to join health insurance because they are too expensive - no wonder why there're over millions people don't have healthcare insurance when they are workers.

That's why the plan Hillary supports is not good. It takes my tax dollars to support insurance for people who can afford to get it for themselves and their own families. Bush's plan supports all the poor children who need medical insurance.

Why should my tax dollars pay for medical insurance for people who can afford their own? Then I won't have enough money for my own medical needs.

Reba · 11-09-2007, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacman

...I'm support free medical center, known as universal health center, that what Canada, UK and other countries are offers that but I don't go to doctor so often, just like twice (if repeated for one more because occur at twice sometime) in 3-4 month due bad colds and need antibiotic because it don't sold in non-Rx area.

No medical care is "free"; someone is paying the bill.

I hope you're not requesting antibiotics just for colds. Antibiotics don't cure colds, and overuse or misuse of them actually make you more susceptible to super bugs.

Reba · 11-09-2007, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deafilmedia

Hillary won 2nd term Senate against other opponents who had no political experience.

Pitiful.

fredfam1 · 11-09-2007, 02:36 PM

Hillary won 2nd term Senate against other opponents who had no political experience.

I disagree. Hillary won due to name recognition only. It is a sad state
when people vote for someone because they can't remember anyone
elses name.

I was traveling through Arkansas when clinton was elected. I asked
a woman who was sitting at a gas station doing peice work(arts and crafts)
while waiting for her hubby to finish work. I asked her, "So what do
you guys think of Clinton being elected president?" She said, (with a tone
of disgust) "He will tax the hell out of the US just the way he taxed the
hell out of Arkansas, and you guys deserve what ever you get for being
stupid enough to elect him." The peice work she was doing was in addition
to having worked 8 hours that day. Just to make ends meet.

Foxrac · 11-09-2007, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

No medical care is "free"; someone is paying the bill.

I hope you're not requesting antibiotics just for colds. Antibiotics don't cure colds, and overuse or misuse of them actually make you more susceptible to super bugs.

You said it's not free, there's other system for universal health center is use funds that's under government like in Canada, UK and other countries that which is offers free health center, that means government are paid for that since patients are nothing to pay bills (exception of some portion), it's not private health center then if it's so then would be difference.

Excuse me, You don't understand about my health, mainly of doctor check-up on mine was colds, including with congestion, sore throat and sneeze (usually yellow stuff) then doctor was found that I have bacteria, that so often for my doctor to said that, after that, I got antibiotic, it does help me alot. Every people has different health problem, mine aren't same as your.

Deafilmedia · 11-09-2007, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredfam1

Hillary won 2nd term Senate against other opponents who had no political experience.

I disagree. Hillary won due to name recognition only. It is a sad state
when people vote for someone because they can't remember anyone
elses name.

I was traveling through Arkansas when clinton was elected. I asked
a woman who was sitting at a gas station doing peice work(arts and crafts)
while waiting for her hubby to finish work. I asked her, "So what do
you guys think of Clinton being elected president?" She said, (with a tone
of disgust) "He will tax the hell out of the US just the way he taxed the
hell out of Arkansas, and you guys deserve what ever you get for being
stupid enough to elect him." The peice work she was doing was in addition
to having worked 8 hours that day. Just to make ends meet.

And also, people like Bill Clinton because how he handled economy.
But he had no reason to have war. And it was easier to just
improve economy.
But then if it wasn't for 9/11 and terrorists, then economy would have
been good.

Reba · 11-09-2007, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacman

You said it's not free, there's other system for universal health center is use funds that's under government like in Canada, UK and other countries that which is offers free health center, that means government are paid for that since patients are nothing to pay bills (exception of some portion), it's not private health center then if it's so then would be difference.

There is no free medical care any place. Someone pays the bills. Either the patients pay for it directly, kind benefactors donate it thru charity, insurance companies pay for it from premiums collected from employees and/or employers, or taxpayers pay for it thru mandatory taxes.

Quote:

Excuse me, You don't understand about my health, mainly of doctor check-up on mine was colds, including with congestion, sore throat and sneeze (usually yellow stuff) then doctor was found that I have bacteria, that so often for my doctor to said that, after that, I got antibiotic, it does help me alot. Every people has different health problem, mine aren't same as your.

I'm so sorry Pacman. I didn't mean to pry into your health. Please forgive me. I just wanted you to be careful about too many antibiotics. It's a very dangerous situation now with super bugs like MRSA that are spreading in part because too many doctors gave out too many antibiotics for simple colds. Obviously, if you have infections secondary to your colds, then your doctor might prescribe antibiotics.

I only wish good health for you so you can keep on posting here at AD.

Reba · 11-09-2007, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deafilmedia

And also, people like Bill Clinton because how he handled economy.
But he had no reason to have war. And it was easier to just
improve economy.
But then if it wasn't for 9/11 and terrorists, then economy would have
been good.

Don't forget that Clinton sent U.S. troops overseas into battle also.

jazzy · 11-09-2007, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Don't forget that Clinton sent U.S. troops overseas into battle also.

Don't forgot she had no choice but voted for it. One congressman voted against it and he lost next election.

fredfam1 · 11-09-2007, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Don't forget that Clinton sent U.S. troops overseas into battle also.

It is amazing how often this is forgotten. What amazes me is that
Clinton does bad things and gets a free pass. But let a Republican
sneeze and its all out war.

Reba · 11-09-2007, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzy

Don't forgot she had no choice but voted for it. One congressman voted against it and he lost next election.

I was referring to President Bill Clinton, not Hillary.

Deafilmedia · 11-09-2007, 04:18 PM

But he got bored and had time to have sex with another woman or women.

Reba · 11-09-2007, 04:23 PM

A brief summary to remind people of Bill Clinton's use of American troops:

Quote:

...Two notable military events occurred during Clinton's second term. The first was Operation Desert Fox, a bombing campaign designed to weaken Saddam Hussein's grip on power over Iraq. The four-day campaign lasted from December 16 to December 19, 1998. It began after Clinton signed H.R. 4655 into law on October 31, 1998, which instituted a policy of "regime change" against Iraq, though it explicitly stated that it did not speak to the use of American military forces. The law was signed months after his State of the Union Address to Congress where Clinton warned Congress of Saddam Hussein's pursuit of nuclear weapons:
“ "Together we must also confront the new hazards of chemical and biological weapons, and the outlaw states, terrorists and organized criminals seeking to acquire them. Saddam Hussein has spent the better part of this decade, and much of his nation's wealth, not on providing for the Iraqi people, but on developing nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them. The United Nations weapons inspectors have done a truly remarkable job, finding and destroying more of Iraq's arsenal than was destroyed during the entire gulf war. Now, Saddam Hussein wants to stop them from completing their mission. I know I speak for everyone in this chamber, Republicans and Democrats, when I say to Saddam Hussein, "You cannot defy the will of the world," and when I say to him, "You have used weapons of mass destruction before; we are determined to deny you the capacity to use them again.”

The second was Operation Allied Force, a 1999 NATO bombing campaign against the former Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Clinton authorized the use of American troops in the mission to stop the ethnic cleansing and genocide of Albanians at the hands of the nationalist Serbians. General Wesley Clark was Supreme Allied Commander of NATO at the time and oversaw the mission. The bombing campaign ended on June 10, 1999, with United Nations Security Council Resolution 1244 adopted that same day, placing Kosovo under U.N. administration and authorizing a peacekeeping force. NATO claimed to have suffered zero deaths in combat, and two deaths total from an Apache helicopter crash. Pre-war genocide claims by Clinton and his administration have been criticized and discredited as greatly exaggerated. A U.N. Court ruled that genocide did not take place, although it did recognize, "a systematic campaign of terror, including murders, rapes, arsons and severe maltreatments". The term "ethnic cleansing" was used as an alternative to "genocide" to denote not just ethnically motivated murder but also displacement, though critics charge there is no difference.

The above is from Wiki, so not the best source but it was quick and concise; feel free to dig deeper.

Foxrac · 11-09-2007, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

There is no free medical care any place. Someone pays the bills. Either the patients pay for it directly, kind benefactors donate it thru charity, insurance companies pay for it from premiums collected from employees and/or employers, or taxpayers pay for it thru mandatory taxes.

I'm so sorry Pacman. I didn't mean to pry into your health. Please forgive me. I just wanted you to be careful about too many antibiotics. It's a very dangerous situation now with super bugs like MRSA that are spreading in part because too many doctors gave out too many antibiotics for simple colds. Obviously, if you have infections secondary to your colds, then your doctor might prescribe antibiotics.

I only wish good health for you so you can keep on posting here at AD.

I checked on wikipedia and all of your information are similiar to wikipedia that what explain about universal health care, some people like one guy said bingo, Canada got free medical center and he will move here, it can cause an confusion about define of universal health care.

It's okay and I forgive you, I don't know about MRSA, that's interesting. I know that doctor won't prescribe when found others than bacteria (such as fungi or virus cannot be treated by antibiotic) but usually find other med than antibiotic.

Reba · 11-09-2007, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacman

...It's okay and I forgive you, I don't know about MRSA, that's interesting. I know that doctor won't prescribe when found others than bacteria (such as fungi or virus cannot be treated by antibiotic) but usually find other med than antibiotic.

Thank you.

Here's info about the deadly staph infection MRSA:

SCDHEC: Acute Disease Epidemiology - Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus ( MRSA)

Reba · 11-09-2007, 04:45 PM

Also, remember Somalia?

Quote:

The intervention into Somalia in 1992 was an attempt to do good and may have been justified, but the decision by President Clinton to continue the mission in the Spring of 1993 was without a doubt a mistake. He abdicated his responsibility as Commander in Chief of the US military to Butros Gali and allowed the UN Sec. Gen. to run a war against Aideed in an attempt to build a nation from a fragmented society.

...Controlling the distribution of food was the key to winning the war, so whoever controled the port [at Mogadishu] kept control of the food for their clan. They could then dole it out the sub-clans to gain more power and soldiers. President Bush made the decision in late 1992 that the US would secure the distribution of food and so prevent the famine from growing worse. In this we were effective, but the clans had not yet come to accept a leader, so the problem simmered underneath the surface of our food distribution program.

The critical juncture was when Clinton declared the mission accomplished in May of 1993, but continued to keep US troops there as part of a vague UN mission to build a nation. This 'assertive multilateralism' was justified in the "State Dept Dispatch" by Albright as necessary for "rebuilding Somali society and promoting democracy in a strife-torn nation". The goals of UNOSOM II included:

-monitoring that all factions continued to respect the cessation of hostilities
and other agreements to which they had consented;
-preventing any resumption of violence and, if necessary,
taking appropriate action;
-maintaining control of the heavy weapons of the organized
factions which would have been brought under international control;
-seizing the small arms of all unauthorized armed elements;
-securing all ports, airports and lines of communications
required for the delivery of humanitarian assistance;
-protecting the personnel, installations and equipment of
the United Nations and its agencies, ICRC as well as NGOs;
-continuing mine-clearing, and;
-repatriating refugees and displaced persons within Somalia.

As you can see this required choosing sides in a conflict if we were to impose a government on the clans. Once we set this in motion, conflict was inevitable. Butros-Butros Gali, the Sec-Gen of the UN had decided that Aideed's clan was an impediment to the above goals. The war began 5 June when Pakistani soldiers were attacked by militia of Aideed's United Somali Congress, killing 25 Pakistanis and continued as a 'low-intensity conflict' until the end of the year. Tactics included mortar attacks on UN compounds almost nightly, random sniper attacks, assaults on UN compounds, mines and command detonated explosives, children unwittingly blowing themselves up at the gates of compounds with grenades given them by adults, and RPGs used to shoot down helocopters. In an effort to keep the Somali conflict out of the headlines, Clinton failed to build up the forces to the level required for the mission. We depended on less than forthright allies for armor support. In one incident, an Engineer Company was brought under attack in Sept 1993 while on a road clearing mission on 21st Oct Road. The Pakistani Armor support immediately fled leaving the lightly armed company to fight its own way out. During the Oct 3rd battle in central Mogadishu the US was forced to depend on other nations to support the rescue convoy.

The US had no national security issues at stake in Somalia and yet 29 US Soldiers died. The decision by President Clinton to send in the Rangers, Delta Force and 160th Special Ops Aviation Rgt. to hunt for Aideed was a misallocation of resources. These are Strategic assets of the military best used for high value targets. They were bogged down in a Civil War which 1) meant they were unavailable in the event of another crisis 2) lost some 80 injured and killed. Failure to give them adequate resources left them hanging out to dry during the battle of October 3rd. The soldiers performed excellently, but were acting under a vague, mishandled policy, much like the situation in the Vietnam war that Mr Clinton avoided.

The definitive book on the October 3rd Battle is Blackhawk Down.

CLINTON FOREIGN POLICY FAILURE PAGE

Foxrac · 11-09-2007, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Thank you.

Here's info about the deadly staph infection MRSA:

SCDHEC: Acute Disease Epidemiology - Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus ( MRSA)

Oh wow, I'm scared after look at picture from google.

Thanks for gave me a info about MRSA and thanks for warn me, now... I'm going to be careful with antibiotic but it's really new to me.

Reba · 11-09-2007, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacman

Oh wow, I'm scared after look at picture from google.

Thanks for gave me a info about MRSA and thanks for warn me, now... I'm going to be careful with antibiotic but it's really new to me.

Yeah, it looks awful, ugh!

If your doctor is taking care of you, I'm sure you'll be fine. The important things about MRSA are just keep yourself clean, don't share personal objects, and watch for any unusual spots on your body.

Deafilmedia · 11-10-2007, 12:31 AM

kinda weird.

fredfam1 · 11-10-2007, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

I was referring to President Bill Clinton, not Hillary.

I didn't know there was a difference.

Liebling:-))) · 11-13-2007, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerON

no doctor would do for cheap labor. There are too many doctors who will not accept it.

And one major problem is... to have free medical is more like have a LONG line on listing.

I find sad that some doctors could be heartless when they see "Medicaid" as cheap labor because they want a lot of money from their patients than concern their healthy. We don't have Medicaid here in Germany and other European countries because we work to pay health insurance. It's obligation accord the law.

Here in Germany, we have no problem with every doctors for their respect and being treat equal.

I never had an experience for have a long wait listing to get a surgery or whatever. We get it immediately to save our risk life if our case is really emergency.

All what I know about waiting list is in UK and some part of Slovenia.

Liebling:-))) · 11-13-2007, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacman

I'm with Liebling...

It's true about over million of people dont have insurance, plus health insurance at my workplace is so expensive, except for open enrollment but more limited time to find insurance for better price and I won't want go for it.

I'm support free medical center, known as universal health center, that what Canada, UK and other countries are offers that but I don't go to doctor so often, just like twice (if repeated for one more because occur at twice sometime) in 3-4 month due bad colds and need antibiotic because it don't sold in non-Rx area.

It doesn't mean that we have free medical because we are work to pay health insurance but we get free medical if we are out of work and living on pension.

About antibiotic... I would recommend you to take herbal tea and some vitamin C to reduce your bad cold, flu etc. I don't use any medical but drink herbal tea and hot lemon. It work pretty good within 3 days... If it's more than 3 days then check with doctor.

11-09-2007, 09:10 AM	#153 (permalink)
Foxrac o_O Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 17,924	I'm with Liebling... It's true about over million of people dont have insurance, plus health insurance at my workplace is so expensive, except for open enrollment but more limited time to find insurance for better price and I won't want go for it. I'm support free medical center, known as universal health center, that what Canada, UK and other countries are offers that but I don't go to doctor so often, just like twice (if repeated for one more because occur at twice sometime) in 3-4 month due bad colds and need antibiotic because it don't sold in non-Rx area. __________________

11-09-2007, 09:47 AM	#154 (permalink)
PowerON Click me 12 time Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Suddenly, I'm cowboy. Posts: 6,827 Blog Entries: 4	no doctor would do for cheap labor. There are too many doctors who will not accept it. And one major problem is... to have free medical is more like have a LONG line on listing. __________________ • [Illustrator.Blog-alloon.com] • Don't shoot me! I'm only blogger!

11-09-2007, 01:31 PM	#157 (permalink)
Deafilmedia Registered User Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,579	Hillary won 2nd term Senate against other opponents who had no political experience. __________________

11-09-2007, 04:18 PM	#170 (permalink)
Deafilmedia Registered User Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,579	But he got bored and had time to have sex with another woman or women. __________________

11-10-2007, 12:31 AM	#177 (permalink)
Deafilmedia Registered User Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,579	kinda weird. __________________

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11-09-2007, 10:53 AM	#155 (permalink)
fredfam1 Cathe Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,024	Leibling, now I am very curious. What are the attitudes in general, of doctors towards patients over where you are? Here in the US doctors often treat patients, (no matter what their economic status) like this, "I am the doctor, I have all authority and nothing you say is important or relavant" My natriopathic doctor is not like this. But many regular doctors are. It has been one of the frustrating things with our system. Here is an example. I take care of my elderly mom. Since I have been doing this she has had 4 surgeries. Because she has a mechanical heart valve she is on a blood thinner called coumadin. When she has had surgeries in the past they gave her another short term blood thinner after the surgery at the same time as restarting her coumadin. This was supposed to be a saftey prevention because coumadin takes a long time to build up in the body. I told them she was reacting differently, (she was bleeding through early and hemmoraging before her blood levels of coumadin reached safe levels) I showed them research but no one would listen. (a common problem here) She almost died after each surgery. On the fourth surgery, (she got knocked down by our goat and broke her arm) they had finally decided that I was correct. She sailed through the surgery no problems. Also with all the tax and fees and private ins taken out of your check do you actually get to take any money home? Can your two parent families afford to have one parent be a stay at home with the children? Technically we shouldn't be able to afford for me to stay home with a family of eight and less than $35,000 per year. (I do a lot of creative financing and bartering) But is important to both my husband and I that one of us be home to homeschool our brood. One thing I have noticed is that it is difficult to get info about what really goes on in other countries. Thanks

11-09-2007, 11:04 AM	#156 (permalink)
fredfam1 Cathe Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,024	I just read the above article which from the link you provide and there is conflicting info. If you read the article I posted, It says that Brittan ranks LAST in providing health care and that the waiting lines are horrible. Yet the article you posted (and they were both current) says Brittan ranks first. Both can not be true. In reading your artical more carfully it appears that the info they got was not from statistics but from interviews of doctors in the various countries. I would doubt the accuracy of such a method of determining health care quality.

11-09-2007, 02:36 PM	#162 (permalink)
fredfam1 Cathe Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,024	Hillary won 2nd term Senate against other opponents who had no political experience. I disagree. Hillary won due to name recognition only. It is a sad state when people vote for someone because they can't remember anyone elses name. I was traveling through Arkansas when clinton was elected. I asked a woman who was sitting at a gas station doing peice work(arts and crafts) while waiting for her hubby to finish work. I asked her, "So what do you guys think of Clinton being elected president?" She said, (with a tone of disgust) "He will tax the hell out of the US just the way he taxed the hell out of Arkansas, and you guys deserve what ever you get for being stupid enough to elect him." The peice work she was doing was in addition to having worked 8 hours that day. Just to make ends meet.

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