Hillary for President! Vote? - Page 11

Liebling:-))) · 11-16-2007, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

You can't show me proof because there is no proof. You think that just because you say something we should

like it's fact from on high.

I did explained you in my previous post why I am for Hillary's plan because I do not need to insure private insurance extra for myself and my family. Why should I repeat to explain you.

Okay, I don't mind to repeat to explain you here.

I work to pay taxes and social insurances for everyone including myself. Healthcare provide everything what I need is expensive surgeries, treatments, therapies, check-up, children's check-up, shots, dental, spa clinic, etc.

You work to pay taxes for help poor people and elder/disablity people, not including yourself but you have to join extra insurance for yourself... Depend how much % you need to add like heart surgery, cancer, etc. etc. etc.... in private insurance. (I learn from my US online friends and American co-workers, German who married to US ... which is very expensive than I pay 50% health insurance to my health insurance company). OR you have to pay month payment if you don't have health insurance... what if surgery cost over $100,000 ? It's stress/hassle...

Liebling:-))) · 11-16-2007, 07:13 AM

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Why should the family use a social worker if they can solve it themselves? The social worker is there to help if the parties can't resolve it themselves. Some people don't want the social worker's help, and shouldn't be forced to use it.

How could a lot of people solve with $100,000 bill themselves without anyone's assistance that's because they don't have healthcare insurance? How can social worker solve million uninsured people with those huge bills?

I don't beleive that the people do not need anyone including social worker for the help when they receive huge bills or have severe problem. They would end to sell their house to be homeless or live at shelter or kill themselves or whatever if their help are being deny.

Quote:

It's not cheating if the customers are willing to pay the price, and if they are informed.

Do you think the same prices are charged for merchandise and services in wealthy areas as in poverty areas? Of course not. In the United States, the same commodities vary in price depending on location. It has nothing to do with cheating. It's whatever the market will bear.

The only time that principle doesn't apply is in socialistic and communistic societies where the government controls everything.

Please don't twist/misquote my post. I never say different prices in different stores and different area but same person in shop, dental or whatever who made the price offer to you when he/she thought you has an insurance. After that he/she learn that you don't have insurance then he/she change his/her price offer to you. I call it dishonestly because they want to get profit when they know that you had an insursance. Here in Germany is very strict. No matter either you are insured or not insured then the price offer, the owner in same shop made is an equal.
See your own word.
Reba's post #249

Did you know that insurance actually increases the cost of medical care? If a patient pays cash for medical services, the cost is less. Example: Recently I broke a tooth. I need a crown for that tooth. The dentist receptionist told me it would cost $970. I told her that I don't have insurance, and that I will pay cash. She said, "Oh, that will be $873."

Same with auto insurance. My friend needed a new windshield. The repairman told her it would cost $225. She told him she didn't have insurance. He told her, "Oh, then it will cost $175."

Example: My car window was damage by weather. I went to garage to get car window screen replacement. They check into the computer to match my car model and then print for me to look at prices. They are not interesting either I have insurance or not but price offer is price offer period. Some people do not insured weather damage - they look for price comparison from different shops no matter either they have insurance or not. price is price, period.

Liebling:-))) · 11-16-2007, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

You do know that the Daily Kos is not an impartial "news" source, right?

It's a left-wing Democrat-supporting blog site.

Do you really believe they provide unbiased reporting?

They took the links from any websites to add their article or whatever... Many links said the same thing...

Comments shared their bad experiences why they cannot afford to pay extra health insurance for themselves and their family... Do you deny comment's posts?

Would you deny those article with original photo of poor boy or what?
BBC NEWS | Americas | Boy's death highlights US health debate

Boy's death highlights US health debate

Quote:

The US House of Representatives and Senate have passed legislation expanding health care to cover an additional four million children but President George W Bush is set to veto it.

A tooth extraction might have saved Deamonte's life

Mr Bush says the bill takes the scheme far beyond its original remit of providing health insurance for children from low-income families.

Whatever happens on the political front, the issue of health care in the US strikes an emotional chord for many.

In February, there was an outcry over the case of Deamonte Driver, a 12-year-old boy who died because his family could not afford private dental treatment.

"The thing about Deamonte was his smile, he was always smiling," says Gina James, principal of The Foundation School in Maryland, where Deamonte was a popular and promising student.

It was while he was at school one Thursday in February that Deamonte complained of toothache. On the Saturday he had emergency surgery. An abscess had spread to his brain.

A few weeks later he died.

"Everyone here was shocked," says Ms James.

"They couldn't understand how he could have toothache and then die. We sometimes give the little kids candy as a reward; well, for a while they stopped taking it because they would say 'if I get a cavity, will I die?'"

'National scandal'

Deamonte's mother, Alyce, could not afford private health insurance and in the US there is no state health service.

Mr Bush believes the bill extends the programme too far

For the poorest there is some free treatment, called Medicaid. But not all dentists or doctors accept Medicaid patients, and Alyce Driver could not afford to pay to have Deamonte's tooth extracted.

This story is not a one-off. Some 45 million Americans are without health insurance, nine million of them children.

Many say it is America's national scandal.

In Washington political opponents have come together on this issue, in part driven by the outcry over Deamonte.

This week, lawmakers - both Democrat and Republican - supported a bill that would help fund insurance for four million more children.

In the Senate, the bill passed 67-29. It also passed in the House of Representatives but with less than the two-thirds majority needed to override a presidential veto.

The proposed bill extends the State Children's Health Insurance Programme (Schip) that subsidises insurance for families who may not be the poorest, but who cannot afford private insurance.

Supporters propose paying for it by increasing taxes on cigarettes.

Mr Bush says expanding public funding goes against the principles of private health care, and that subsidising it creates a disincentive for people to buy private care themselves.

He supports tax cuts that will help poorer people buy private insurance and says he opposes this legislation because it "directs scarce funding to higher incomes at the expense of poor families".

Politics

So, in effect, both supporters and opponents of the bill say the other side risks health coverage for children.

The political wrangling over the legislation has added resonance coming ahead of next year's presidential and congressional elections.

One Democratic Congressman, Elijah Cummings, from Maryland wants to take the health care issue further.

He has proposed "Deamonte's Law", which seeks to ensure every child has access to dental care.

"It's shocking, it's sad, " Mr Cummings said of Deamonte's death. "It provides a wake-up call to us all that we have to do better."

Amid all the politicking on Capitol Hill, the fate of Deamonte highlights the tragedy at the heart of this issue: the very real questions about how the richest nation on earth cares for some of its poorest citizens.

I know I should not show those article to you because you don't want feeling and opinion but fact. I can't ignore people's feeling and opinion when you want only facts. I am for the fact, opinion and feelings, not just the fact.

Liebling:-))) · 11-16-2007, 08:21 AM

Lack Of Health Insurance Leads Many To Bankruptcy

By Kristian Foden-Vencil

Portland, OR October 3, 2007 2:34 p.m.

Quote:

With the never-ending rise of health care costs, comes a never-ending debate over how to pay for it.

In Oregon, voters will decide Measure 50 this fall, which raises tobacco taxes to pay for the Healthy Kids Program. And no matter how that measure is decided, it's clear that in Oregon, as elsewhere, the healthcare system as a whole is not well.

In the last few weeks, two studies have come out highlighting some of the problems.

A Harvard study found that half of all Americans who file for personal bankruptcy, say that medical expenses are a major factor. Another by consumer group, Families USA, suggested that the number of uninsured Americans may be twice as high as previously believed.

Kristian Foden-Vencil found some struggling Oregonians using OPB's new Public Insight Network, and has this report.

In order to be considered uninsured by the Census Bureau, you have to have been without health coverage for a full year. The consumer group, Families USA, took a closer look at those numbers.

It found that if people who didn't have coverage for a month or more were included, then a third of all Americans could be considered uninsured at some point in the year. Ron Pollack is the group's executive director.

Ron Pollack: "These are families that typically have a breadwinner who is in a job that does not provide healthcare coverage and the cost of buying insurance is too high a percentage of their income to afford."

The study found that in Oregon for example, a state with more than three million people, about a million don't have insurance at sometime each year.

For many of those people, a break in health insurance isn't a problem. They go on to get another job with health benefits. But if a person who's between health plans happens to get sick, or has an accident during that time, a lack of health insurance can literally mean bankruptcy.

Take the example of Gary Marsh, an electrical engineer from Aloha. At age 50, he was at the top of his profession, working full-time and enjoying full benefits. But in 2002, there was a recession and he was laid off.

Gary Marsh: "Anybody that was making a lot of money they cut. And hired two guys at half the price."

He tried to get another job in his field, but no one was hiring. When finances got tight, he applied for a commercial driver's license -- to drive big rigs. But when he took the required physical, it turned out he was severely diabetic and couldn't get the license.

With no health insurance, it cost $400 to get a doctor's appointment and a prescription. But he says, the prescription lasted for four months and he couldn't get it renewed without another $400 office visit.

Gary Marsh: "After that prescription ran out, I've been buying medicine over the internet from Mexico. I can still pretty much self-medicated over the internet from Mexico until Bush puts the squash on that then I guess I'll have to sell my house to buy medicine or something. I don't know."

Federal law bans citizens from buying prescription drugs from outside of the U.S., but it's currently not widely enforced.

We received help reporting this story from people in our Public Insight Network who have agreed to help us cover the news by sharing their knowledge and experience.

If you'd like to contribute your expertise, you can learn more about the Public Insight Network and sign up by going to our web site.

That's at opb.org/publicinsight.

Marsh recently found a job doing electrical engineering, but with a temp agency. That means he still doesn't have health insurance.

And he says, even if he got a full-time job, he might not be able to get insurance if he had to take a physical exam because he now has a pre-existing condition.

Marsh says he never thought he'd be considering bankruptcy.

But even having insurance is no guarantee against medical bankruptcy. Take the case of Karah Pino, a 33-year-old student at the Oregon College of Oriental Medicine, who was in a car crash.

Karah Pino : "So I was holding onto the steering wheel trying to keep myself from being torqued so badly that my spine would be twisted. Basically, I didn't find out for another year, but I ruptured a tendon in my shoulder."

Pino spent months trying to walk properly again, going to see doctors, specialists, acupuncturists and osteopaths. She figured she'd be okay financially, because she's on the Oregon Health Plan. But only about 30 percent of her costs were covered and she's now tallied up a $50,000 medical bill. And an accident settlement is still nowhere in sight.

Karah Pino: "It's like I cannot even take it seriously, it's so much money and it's so unfathomable that I would be expected to just keep doing this and not having any kind of help. It's been really disheartening. And I was in shock when I realized the way the system is working, or not working right now."

Pino owes another $100,000 in student loans from school and $20,000 in credit card debt. She's been putting her living expenses on plastic because she hasn't been able to work since the crash.

She's considering bankruptcy, but to save money she's giving up her apartment next month. She says she'll live on couches as she recovers from her next surgery.

Doctor David Himmelstein, an associate professor at Harvard, says Pino's case is not unusual. About half of all Americans who file for personal bankruptcy, cite medical bills as a major cause.

David Himmelstein: "This is a very common problem. It's a middle class problem. And until you're faced with a serious illness, it's hard to believe how vulnerable you really are. And virtually none of us have really comprehensive coverage that would last through a prolonged and serious illness."

He says that over the last 20 years, there has been a 20-fold increase in the number of medical bankruptcies -- because healthcare costs keep increasing and incomes don't.

His solution? Universal healthcare. Which he says won't cost more than our current system because what he calls the "bloated bureaucracy" surrounding billing and insurance, will disappear.

While most Americans concede there is a problem, there's little consensus about what to do.

People like Devon Herrick, of the National Center for Policy Analysis, don't think universal health care is a good idea. He thinks things aren't as bad as they seem and can be fixed with a few simple changes.

For example, he says healthcare prices need to be grounded in reality, like the cost for electronics at retail outlets like Best Buy.

Devon Herrick: "The prices hospitals charge are really just a point of negotiation. Blue Cross Blue Shield, might be getting 50 percent off the list price. Well list price is really a fictitious figure. I think if people controlled more of the funds that pay for the medical services and goods. Prices would more closely reflect cost. And hospitals would have to start quoting prices and giving you package deals."

Herrick believes a greater focus on prices could cut healthcare costs by 30 percent.

Editor's Note

The original version of this story reported that Rob Vaughn was fired from his job. That is incorrect. In fact, Rob Vaughn told us he was laid off, not fired. OPB regrets the error.

But Rob Vaughn isn't so sure. He was a project manager for a Portland high-tech start up -- until he got thyroid cancer. After three months off work he was layed off. He describes himself as extremely financially conservative. Yet last year he had to spend $29,000 of his own money on medical expenses.

Rob Vaughn: "I mean I've been just doing a whole lot of things I can do to bring in money. Selling furniture, selling audio equipment and computer equipment I have. Fixing audio equipment, working part-time jobs, working contract programming jobs while I look for a full-time permanent one. And then just slowly burning through my savings and my retirement fund."

He says if he reaches the point where he has to foreclose on his house, he's going to leave the U.S. and live in Spain or New Zealand -- both countries that have universal healthcare systems and emphasize preventative medicine.

OPB News · Lack Of Health Insurance Leads Many To Bankruptcy

Reba · 11-16-2007, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

Again, the comparison you made is a fallicious because John Q is a human and King Kong is an animal.

John Q is not a human; it's a fictional character, same as King Kong is a fictional character.

Neither one is real.

Reba · 11-16-2007, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

Blogs is similar as any Forums - the members provided the links from the websites over their blogs or any Forums like what we did here... Right?

The link that you provided from that blog was editiorial opinion, not fact, not personal experience.

Quote:

Do you mean that you also don't trust the Forums as well? I only took from websites where they add the links from websites to add their blogs or Forum. I do provide the links over here and several thread often.

I know the difference between fact and opinion. Some threads contain facts, some contain opinion, some contain both. One needs to know how to discern fact from opinion. Just because something pops up on a website doesn't make it so.

Quote:

I often said in several threads that I don't alway take one sided but two sided...

So you said; I've yet to see it.

Quote:

wow, *speechless* I am a human like everyone. Am I an inhuman or what?

So you're human; so what? That doesn't mean you have authority to tell people in other countries how to vote. I won't ever tell you how to vote in Germany.

Quote:

Are you a racist that's because I am not an American?

"American" is not a race.

I'll finish later; got to go to work now.

Reba · 11-16-2007, 03:33 PM

cont.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

You ask Hillary, not me.

You support her plan not me, so you should be able to explain your support.

Quote:

Let me explain the example about small businesses because it's similar to European countries. They support employees and the owner or self-employer of small businesses with taxes/social insurance issues, not big businesses/companies. The big business/company owners pay 50% taxes and social insurance for their employees/workers and then show how much they spending a year to Tax Officer... Depend how much then they will get refund or not... They will get tax credits thru Tax Officer.

All business/company owners get tax credits - depend how much taxes/social insurance, gasoline cost for deliver, etc. they spending on a year. They also get business licescne for % discount tax for anything when they want to buy, etc.

I was asking about Hillary's health plan for American small businesses. Our tax system is not the same as European, so that comparison doesn't really answer the question.

Quote:

...but I don't know what Hillary plan for tax credits for her people in America. I will have a look at her plan for tax credits.

If you don't know or understand her plan, how can you say that you support it? How can you support a plan that you don't understand?

Quote:

I am not really an Expert but I read those article and must say that it does same to EU countries as well. All what I know is our medicine needs, therapies or surgery are never being deny, no matter either I am work or out of work or long illness. My hubby was not work for 6 months after knee surgery. He still received treatment and sick pay from healthcare to keep our mortage house survive and support family.

I asked what was the incentive to keep the health care costs down.

Quote:

Do you mean that I should not show comments's posts about their experiences because they are not "fact" but feelings and opinions? OR Hillary should not show her feeling for her people and children in America and should not listen their feelings and opinions because they are not facts?

You can show them if you want; but they don't prove anything about Hillary's health plan. How do her supposed "feelings" prove that a certain health plan will benefit me or other Americans?

Quote:

The law CAN change and improve after listen people's feeling and opinion and also discuss their views, too.

Of course Hillary should listen to people. But people's feelings won't change Hillary's plan.

Reba · 11-16-2007, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

I did explained you in my previous post why I am for Hillary's plan because I do not need to insure private insurance extra for myself and my family...

Hillary's plan won't affect you or your family, so that's not relevant.

Quote:

I work to pay taxes and social insurances for everyone including myself. Healthcare provide everything what I need is expensive surgeries, treatments, therapies, check-up, children's check-up, shots, dental, spa clinic, etc.

So? That's not proof that Hillary's plan will be good for me.

Quote:

You work to pay taxes for help poor people and elder/disablity people

I will still have to do that under Hillary's plan.

Quote:

... you have to join extra insurance for yourself...

If I want it. I don't want to be forced to buy extra insurance.

Reba · 11-16-2007, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

How could a lot of people solve with $100,000 bill themselves without anyone's assistance that's because they don't have healthcare insurance? How can social worker solve million uninsured people with those huge bills?

The social worker is only a negotiator for the patient. The social worker doesn't hand over any money. Some people prefer to do their own negotiating.

Quote:

They would end to sell their house to be homeless or live at shelter or kill themselves or whatever if their help are being deny.

You really believe those are the only options that Americans have? Whoa!

Quote:

Please don't twist/misquote my post. I never say different prices in different stores and different area but same person in shop, dental or whatever who made the price offer to you when he/she thought you has an insurance. After that he/she learn that you don't have insurance then he/she change his/her price offer to you. I call it dishonestly because they want to get profit when they know that you had an insursance.

If a private business wants to offer a discount how is that dishonest? That's good business. The discount helped my friend afford a new windshield, and helped me to afford a new dental crown. If a doctor wants to offer low (or free) services to poor patients who don't have insurance, why should you say that it's dishonest? I thought that you wanted doctors to help poor patients?

Stores don't have set prices either. I've negotiated in stores (including big chain stores) for lower prices. It's not dishonest. Everything is recorded and taxes paid. Nothing is hidden.

My point about the insurance is that hospitals and doctors will charge as much as the insurance allows; why not? What's the incentive to lower their charges?

Quote:

Here in Germany is very strict. No matter either you are insured or not insured then the price offer, the owner in same shop made is an equal.

Too bad.

Quote:

Example: My car window was damage by weather. I went to garage to get car window screen replacement. They check into the computer to match my car model and then print for me to look at prices. They are not interesting either I have insurance or not but price offer is price offer period. Some people do not insured weather damage - they look for price comparison from different shops no matter either they have insurance or not. price is price, period.

Reba · 11-16-2007, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

Quote:

Gary Marsh: "After that prescription ran out, I've been buying medicine over the internet from Mexico. I can still pretty much self-medicated over the internet from Mexico until Bush puts the squash on that then I guess I'll have to sell my house to buy medicine or something. I don't know."

So what happened? Did he actually sell his house? Did he quit getting the internet medicine?

Quote:

Karah Pino : "So I was holding onto the steering wheel trying to keep myself from being torqued so badly that my spine would be twisted. Basically, I didn't find out for another year, but I ruptured a tendon in my shoulder."

Pino spent months trying to walk properly again, going to see doctors, specialists, acupuncturists and osteopaths. She figured she'd be okay financially, because she's on the Oregon Health Plan. But only about 30 percent of her costs were covered and she's now tallied up a $50,000 medical bill. And an accident settlement is still nowhere in sight.

So will Pino eventually get an accident settlement? These things take a long time but eventually do get paid by the driver's insurance. I know that most car accident insurance claims don't pay off until all the diagnosis and treatments are accomplished. That is, they are waiting for the final bill so they can determine the actual costs and pain-and-suffering costs.

The article didn't say the claim was turned down. It just said it hasn't happened yet. There's a huge difference in meaning.

Quote:

Pino owes another $100,000 in student loans from school...

Unrelated to the medical bills.

Quote:

...and $20,000 in credit card debt. She's been putting her living expenses on plastic because she hasn't been able to work since the crash.

She's considering bankruptcy, but to save money she's giving up her apartment next month. She says she'll live on couches as she recovers from her next surgery.

I would like to know the rest of the story about the accident insurance. The article doesn't give any information about her coverage.

Quote:

He says that over the last 20 years, there has been a 20-fold increase in the number of medical bankruptcies -- because healthcare costs keep increasing and incomes don't.

Do you notice the reason stated for increased bankruptcies? An increase in health care costs; not lack of insurance. That's what it says. Maybe someone better investigate why health care costs are increasing.

Quote:

Devon Herrick: "The prices hospitals charge are really just a point of negotiation. Blue Cross Blue Shield, might be getting 50 percent off the list price. Well list price is really a fictitious figure. I think if people controlled more of the funds that pay for the medical services and goods. Prices would more closely reflect cost. And hospitals would have to start quoting prices and giving you package deals."

Herrick believes a greater focus on prices could cut healthcare costs by 30 percent.

Ah, ha!

Quote:

He says if he reaches the point where he has to foreclose on his house, he's going to leave the U.S. and live in Spain or New Zealand -- both countries that have universal healthcare systems and emphasize preventative medicine.

Well, did he do that? Or did he just say that?

What really happened?

fredfam1 · 11-16-2007, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roadrunner

She will not get my vote.

I must add, I know this country is ready to accept a female President...and I have nothing against that. Personally, I don't think she is the 'one' to have in the Oval Office running our country.

~RR

Most excellent post. In Total Agreement!

Liebling:-))) · 11-17-2007, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

John Q is not a human; it's a fictional character, same as King Kong is a fictional character.

Neither one is real.

you twist my posts...

John Q movie help the people to realize that healthcare insurance is neccassary. King Kong? What? nothing but just "imageable" movie like Indiana Jones, Jurassic Park etc.

Liebling:-))) · 11-17-2007, 02:50 AM

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

The link that you provided from that blog was editiorial opinion, not fact, not personal experience.

I know the difference between fact and opinion. Some threads contain facts, some contain opinion, some contain both. One needs to know how to discern fact from opinion. Just because something pops up on a website doesn't make it so.

The bloggers and members took the links from websites to add in their blog and Forum to share their views and want to listen comments´s view on those link. So? If you want the just fact without opinion and feeling then Forum is not right for you.

Quote:

So you said; I've yet to see it.

Yes I often said in several threads. I am sorry that you missed it.

[QUOTE]

Quote:

So you're human; so what?

For you, I am not human but Foreigner.

Quote:

That doesn't mean you have authority to tell people in other countries how to vote. I won't ever tell you how to vote in Germany.

Is it forbid to suggest/recommend the people from different countries? I do not see anything that I break AD´s rule for suggest/recommend the people anything.

If Alex want his Forum for Americans only then he would ban me from register his account, don´t he? Its about open minded and common sense, we all can share our views with suggest/recommend instead of treat us as foreigeners, that´s what Alex want. I will respect if Alex said that his Forum is for Americans only.

Quote:

"American" is not a race.

I consider the people as Racist who see person as foreigner, not human, no matter either how different their skin color is.

Liebling:-))) · 11-17-2007, 03:16 AM

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

You support her plan not me, so you should be able to explain your support.

Yes I have in my previous posts. I explained you why I support her plan because her plan is almost similar to EU countries. I am sorry that my posts are being ignored.

Quote:

I was asking about Hillary's health plan for American small businesses. Our tax system is not the same as European, so that comparison doesn't really answer the question.

Yes you asked and I explained the example to compare with EU system. That´s what Hillary want. I am sorry that it doesn´t meet your satisfactory.

Quote:

If you don't know or understand her plan, how can you say that you support it? How can you support a plan that you don't understand?

I already explained in my previous posts why I support Hillary´s plan because I know what it is that´s why I support her fully. You are the one who don´t want to understand.

Quote:

You can show them if you want; but they don't prove anything about Hillary's health plan. How do her supposed "feelings" prove that a certain health plan will benefit me or other Americans?

Of course Hillary should listen to people. But people's feelings won't change Hillary's plan.

They can improve their plans after collect the people´s feeling and experiences. Example: a 12 years old boy (see link, I provided in previous post) have to die because his parents don´t have healthcare insurance. It´s wake-up calling. Everyone do have feeling.

Liebling:-))) · 11-17-2007, 03:19 AM

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Hillary's plan won't affect you or your family, so that's not relevant.

So? That's not proof that Hillary's plan will be good for me.

This is your view.

Quote:

I will still have to do that under Hillary's plan.

Yes, but including yourself.

Quote:

If I want it. I don't want to be forced to buy extra insurance.

But what if your surgery cost you $100,000? How could you acheive it? monthly payment?

Liebling:-))) · 11-17-2007, 03:33 AM

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

The social worker is only a negotiator for the patient. The social worker doesn't hand over any money. Some people prefer to do their own negotiating.

How? How can they acheive to pay month payment for $100,000. Month payment is huge for $100,000 like buy the house or apartment. I bet the social worker suggest them to sell their house to cover the monthly payment if they cannot afford to pay monthly payment for $100,000 .

Quote:

You really believe those are the only options that Americans have? Whoa!

Please don´t twist my posts since you know my previous posts. I do not need to repeat it. I would suggest you to visit statistic in google and then see yourself.

Quote:

If a private business wants to offer a discount how is that dishonest? That's good business. The discount helped my friend afford a new windshield, and helped me to afford a new dental crown. If a doctor wants to offer low (or free) services to poor patients who don't have insurance, why should you say that it's dishonest? I thought that you wanted doctors to help poor patients?

Example: You as uninsured and I as insured went to same store to buy the same material. The owner made their price offer for us. You tell him that you have no insurance then he made reduce price for you, not me because I have insurance. I would require the equal if he reject then I go other shop because I don´t like dishonest people who tried to make fat profit from my insurance.

Quote:

Stores don't have set prices either. I've negotiated in stores (including big chain stores) for lower prices. It's not dishonest. Everything is recorded and taxes paid. Nothing is hidden.

Oh I see...

Every stores have set prices here in Germany and other EU countries except poor countries.

Anyway, I can negotiated with them IF I buy more than one material from the same store. It´s their decision how many % discount they made for us for many materials than one. They are not interesting to see either we have insurance or not but interesting to see how many materials we buy to make them happy.

Quote:

My point about the insurance is that hospitals and doctors will charge as much as the insurance allows; why not? What's the incentive to lower their charges?

Too bad. The doctors can´t do anything because we ALL have obligation insurances.

Quote:

Too bad.

I think it´s good because I like honest people who do not see after my insurance to make fat profit for themselvse.

Quote:

we can negotiated with prices without see either we have insurance or not.

Liebling:-))) · 11-17-2007, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredfam1

Most excellent post. In Total Agreement!

RR´s post is not from here but other thread.

Liebling:-))) · 11-17-2007, 03:37 AM

Reba, accord your post # 310. Do you deny comments´ real life experiences?

fredfam1 · 11-17-2007, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

RR´s post is not from here but other thread.

Well shoot! Not only do I get lost in real life on roads, I do the
same thing on chat sites. Any body got a map?

Reba · 11-17-2007, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

you twist my posts...

John Q movie help the people to realize that healthcare insurance is neccassary. King Kong? What? nothing but just "imageable" movie like Indiana Jones, Jurassic Park etc.

You mean before the movie John Q people had no clue that people didn't have enough health insurance? I don't think so.

Also, the movie presented a false picture of the American health care situation, and an even falser solution.

Reba · 11-17-2007, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

The bloggers and members took the links from websites to add in their blog and Forum to share their views and want to listen comments´s view on those link. So? If you want the just fact without opinion and feeling then Forum is not right for you.

There is nothing wrong with stating opinions. The important point is not confusing fact with opinions.

Quote:

Yes I often said in several threads. I am sorry that you missed it.

I didn't say that I missed you saying that. I've read your posts many times that where you say that. I said that I've haven't seen you do that yet. You say that you post both sides but you don't actually do it.

Quote:

For you, I am not human but Foreigner.

Where on earth do you get that bizarre idea? And since when is a foreigner not human? We're all foreigners in other countries. So what?

Quote:

Is it forbid to suggest/recommend the people from different countries? I do not see anything that I break AD´s rule for suggest/recommend the people anything.

What is this fixation with "rules" and the forbidden? No one is forbidding you from posting anything. But that doesn't mean everyone has to accept every word that you post as golden.

Quote:

If Alex want his Forum for Americans only then he would ban me from register his account, don´t he? Its about open minded and common sense, we all can share our views with suggest/recommend instead of treat us as foreigeners, that´s what Alex want. I will respect if Alex said that his Forum is for Americans only.

Again, where on earth do you get these overblown perceptions?

If you want to tell Americans how to vote and live, be my guest. I'm sure you will be just as accepting when we criticize German politics and culture, and tell you how to vote and live.

Quote:

I consider the people as Racist who see person as foreigner, not human, no matter either how different their skin color is.

Since you and I are the same race, I know that you aren't referring to us. Since I never brought up race as an issue in this thread I can't solve it for you.

Reba · 11-17-2007, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

How could a lot of people solve with $100,000 bill themselves without anyone's assistance that's because they don't have healthcare insurance? How can social worker solve million uninsured people with those huge bills?

As I said before, the social worker doesn't "solve" the debt; the social worker is a mediator in the negotiations.

Quote:

I don't beleive that the people do not need anyone including social worker for the help when they receive huge bills or have severe problem. They would end to sell their house to be homeless or live at shelter or kill themselves or whatever if their help are being deny.

OK, I'm lying.

Tousi · 11-17-2007, 10:33 AM

I hereby induct Reba into sainthood solely on the basis of patience!

Reba · 11-17-2007, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

Yes I have in my previous posts. I explained you why I support her plan because her plan is almost similar to EU countries. I am sorry that my posts are being ignored.

I asked you to convince me that Hillary's plan would benefit me as an American. What good or relevance is there in European examples? Hillary's plan will affect Americans, not Europeans. Our tax system is not the same as Europe's. Americans are the voters and taxpayers here; Europeans are not. We want to know what health care plan will work for us.

Quote:

Yes you asked and I explained the example to compare with EU system. That´s what Hillary want. I am sorry that it doesn´t meet your satisfactory.

Excuse me? If Hillary wants a European plan then she should move to Europe. Americans want an American plan or none at all. This isn't Europe, and our system of government is not the same.

Quote:

I already explained in my previous posts why I support Hillary´s plan because I know what it is that´s why I support her fully. You are the one who don´t want to understand.

If you want Hillary's plan for you, then you can have it. But please don't force it on us Americans. We're the ones who would have to pay for it. It doesn't come out of your pocket.

Reba · 11-17-2007, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

This is your view.

So how will Hillary's plan affect you? How will it help me? (It won't.)

Quote:

Yes, but including yourself.

In other words, my costs will INCREASE. Thanks for nothing.

Quote:

But what if your surgery cost you $100,000? How could you acheive it? monthly payment?

Yes, for many, many months. So?

Reba · 11-17-2007, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

How? How can they acheive to pay month payment for $100,000. Month payment is huge for $100,000 like buy the house or apartment. I bet the social worker suggest them to sell their house to cover the monthly payment if they cannot afford to pay monthly payment for $100,000 .

Oooo, you can prophesize what the social worker will do! I'm impressed!

Quote:

Please don´t twist my posts since you know my previous posts. I do not need to repeat it. I would suggest you to visit statistic in google and then see yourself.

Why should I visit Google? It's more fun watching you make statements that you can't support with facts.

Quote:

Example: You as uninsured and I as insured went to same store to buy the same material. The owner made their price offer for us. You tell him that you have no insurance then he made reduce price for you, not me because I have insurance. I would require the equal if he reject then I go other shop because I don´t like dishonest people who tried to make fat profit from my insurance.

That's just it; the price is an offer. You can take it or leave it. If you don't like the suggested price go to other shop. It's a free country. (At least in America.) You can't

the shop owner and force him to change his price.

Quote:

Too bad. The doctors can´t do anything because we ALL have obligation insurances.

So you're stuck with prices that can't be negotiated. Oh, well.

Quote:

I think it´s good because I like honest people who do not see after my insurance to make fat profit for themselvse.

What part is dishonest? They charge exactly what the insurance allows. How is that dishonest? They try to help out the people who don't have insurance. Are you against that?

Quote:

we can negotiated with prices without see either we have insurance or not.

We can do that also.

Reba · 11-17-2007, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

RR´s post is not from here but other thread.

What?! Are we forbidden from posting quotes from other threads!?

Reba · 11-17-2007, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liebling:-)))

Reba, accord your post # 310. Do you deny comments´ real life experiences?

I don't deny the statements that were made. The problem is, those stories are incomplete. Where's the final chapter? They all say what they might do. No one says what they eventually do for real.

The real life experiences are not complete. What happened?

Kaitin · 11-17-2007, 11:07 AM

Some of Hillary Clinton votes, from Project VoteSmart.Com:

Voted in favor of the USA Patriot Act of 2001: Vote to pass a bill that grants law enforcement more authority to search homes, tap phone lines, and track internet use of those suspected of terrorism for four years.
- Includes measures to break up terrorists' financial networks and money laundering activities via increased communication between law enforcement and financial institutions and more rigorous oversight of financial transactions.

---

Voted in favor of the USA Patriot and Terrorism Prevention Reauthorization

---

Voted in favor of Implementing the 9/11 Commissions Recommendations Act: An Act to make the United States more secure by implementing unfinished recommendations of the 9/11 Commission to fight the war on terror more effectively, to improve homeland security, and for other purposes.

---

Voted in favor of the Homeland Security Act of 2002: Vote to pass a bill that would create a Homeland Security Department with cabinet-level status for the purpose of protecting United States security.

---

- Voted in favor of REAL ID Funding: REAL ID is a nationwide effort intended to prevent terrorism, reduce fraud, and improve the reliability and accuracy of identification documents that State governments issue.

---

- Voted in favor of Habeus Corpus for Detainess
From Wikipedia: In common law countries, habeas corpus (/ˈheɪbiəs ˈkɔɹpəs/) (Latin: [We command] that you have the body) [1] is the name of a legal action, or writ, through which a person can seek relief from unlawful detention of themselves or another person. The writ of habeas corpus has historically been an important instrument for the safeguarding of individual freedom against arbitrary state action.
Also known as "The Great Writ," a writ of habeas corpus ad subjiciendum is a summons with the force of a court order addressed to the custodian (such as a prison official) demanding that a prisoner be brought before the court, together with proof of authority, so that the court can determine whether that custodian has lawful authority to hold that person, or, if not, the person should be released from custody. The prisoner, or some other person on his behalf (for example, where the prisoner is being held incommunicado), may petition the court or an individual judge for a writ of habeas corpus.
The right of habeas corpus—or rather, the right to petition for the writ—has long been celebrated as the most efficient safeguard of the liberty of the subject.

---

Voted in favor of Judicial Review for Detainees Amendment: Gives the United States Court of Appeals in the District of Columbia exclusive jurisdiction on habeus corpus claims filed by or on the behalf of detainees at Guantanamo Bay who have already had a Combatant Status Review Tribunal.
- Allows the Court to determine if the detention is legal, if the determination of the detainees status as an enemy combatant followed proper procedures and if the determination is supported by sufficient, legally obtained evidence that was not gained through coercion, torture, or cruel and inhuman treatment.
- Prohibits the DC Court of Appeals from hearing claims based on living conditions of the detainees.

---

Hillary Clinton talking in the Senate against military tribunals: “Democrats and Republicans alike believe that terrorists must be caught, captured, sentenced, punished. I believe there can be no mercy for those who perpetrated 9/11 and other crimes against humanity. But in the process of accomplishing what I believe is essential for our security, we must hold on to our values and set an example that we can point to with pride, not shame. Those captured are going nowhere. They are imprisoned now. So we should follow the duty given us by the Supreme Court and carefully craft the right piece of legislation to try and punish them. The President acted without authority and it is our duty now to be careful in handing this President just the right amount of authority to get the job done,”

Liebling:-))) · 11-17-2007, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredfam1

Well shoot! Not only do I get lost in real life on roads, I do the
same thing on chat sites. Any body got a map?

11-17-2007, 03:37 AM	#318 (permalink)
Liebling:-))) Sussi 7.7.86 - 18.6.09 Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 30,971	Reba, accord your post # 310. Do you deny comments´ real life experiences? __________________

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11-17-2007, 10:33 AM	#323 (permalink)
Tousi Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 9,572	I hereby induct Reba into sainthood solely on the basis of patience!

11-17-2007, 11:07 AM	#329 (permalink)
Kaitin Registered User Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 845 Blog Entries: 23	Some of Hillary Clinton votes, from Project VoteSmart.Com: Voted in favor of the USA Patriot Act of 2001: Vote to pass a bill that grants law enforcement more authority to search homes, tap phone lines, and track internet use of those suspected of terrorism for four years. - Includes measures to break up terrorists' financial networks and money laundering activities via increased communication between law enforcement and financial institutions and more rigorous oversight of financial transactions. --- Voted in favor of the USA Patriot and Terrorism Prevention Reauthorization --- Voted in favor of Implementing the 9/11 Commissions Recommendations Act: An Act to make the United States more secure by implementing unfinished recommendations of the 9/11 Commission to fight the war on terror more effectively, to improve homeland security, and for other purposes. --- Voted in favor of the Homeland Security Act of 2002: Vote to pass a bill that would create a Homeland Security Department with cabinet-level status for the purpose of protecting United States security. --- - Voted in favor of REAL ID Funding: REAL ID is a nationwide effort intended to prevent terrorism, reduce fraud, and improve the reliability and accuracy of identification documents that State governments issue. --- - Voted in favor of Habeus Corpus for Detainess From Wikipedia: In common law countries, habeas corpus (/ˈheɪbiəs ˈkɔɹpəs/) (Latin: [We command] that you have the body) [1] is the name of a legal action, or writ, through which a person can seek relief from unlawful detention of themselves or another person. The writ of habeas corpus has historically been an important instrument for the safeguarding of individual freedom against arbitrary state action. Also known as "The Great Writ," a writ of habeas corpus ad subjiciendum is a summons with the force of a court order addressed to the custodian (such as a prison official) demanding that a prisoner be brought before the court, together with proof of authority, so that the court can determine whether that custodian has lawful authority to hold that person, or, if not, the person should be released from custody. The prisoner, or some other person on his behalf (for example, where the prisoner is being held incommunicado), may petition the court or an individual judge for a writ of habeas corpus. The right of habeas corpus—or rather, the right to petition for the writ—has long been celebrated as the most efficient safeguard of the liberty of the subject. --- Voted in favor of Judicial Review for Detainees Amendment: Gives the United States Court of Appeals in the District of Columbia exclusive jurisdiction on habeus corpus claims filed by or on the behalf of detainees at Guantanamo Bay who have already had a Combatant Status Review Tribunal. - Allows the Court to determine if the detention is legal, if the determination of the detainees status as an enemy combatant followed proper procedures and if the determination is supported by sufficient, legally obtained evidence that was not gained through coercion, torture, or cruel and inhuman treatment. - Prohibits the DC Court of Appeals from hearing claims based on living conditions of the detainees. --- Hillary Clinton talking in the Senate against military tribunals: “Democrats and Republicans alike believe that terrorists must be caught, captured, sentenced, punished. I believe there can be no mercy for those who perpetrated 9/11 and other crimes against humanity. But in the process of accomplishing what I believe is essential for our security, we must hold on to our values and set an example that we can point to with pride, not shame. Those captured are going nowhere. They are imprisoned now. So we should follow the duty given us by the Supreme Court and carefully craft the right piece of legislation to try and punish them. The President acted without authority and it is our duty now to be careful in handing this President just the right amount of authority to get the job done,”