ravensteve1961

The Soldiers will not face court martal. General Tommy Franks isnt the boss anymore we have a new general who stands behind our soldiers. Just like israel soldier opened fires on a innocent 10 year old palestinian girl. We dont know if that freed hostage was gonna carry out an terror attack. So i feel our soldiers were justified. Like i said if israel doesnt court martial their soldiers why should we?
U.S. Fires on Freed Hostage

Deafness

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Codger

"Sgrena's car was traveling at high speed toward a checkpoint, the military said in a statement, and troops repeatedly "tried to warn the driver" to slow down before opening fire. The statement said soldiers shot into the engine block only after trying to warn the driver to stop by "hand and arm signals, flashing white lights and firing warning shots."

Yep, I would have opened fire too. Too many of our soldiers have died by not doing so. That people in the car survived shows that the soldiers used restraint and did not continue to fire after the car was halted.

Beowulf

Foreign news and witnesses report it differently.
They knew the car was coming and the car was 700 meters from the airport, which means they had passed all the checkpoints.
The military silenced all cellphones at the time they opened fire.
Something is very fishy about this whole incident, and I suppose we will eventually find out the truth.
http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/pu...er_16096.shtml

Codger

Only one person in the car killed? Yeah, they were trying to kill all the occupants.

Beowulf

Lol, Codger, that struck me as odd as well.
On the flip side, if they were terrorists, then our soldiers are pretty crummy shots.

Codger

I think you have to look at their standing orders which are to fire on any vehicle attempting to run the checkpoint until it stops. They did mostly aim at the engine block first. If they had wanted her dead for some reason, they certainly had the oportunity to make it so after the vehicle was stopped. Bombers often load the vehicles between checkpoints, so the fact that they had passed other checkpoints was moot. 700 yards is 2100 feet..(nearly a mile?) from the airport? I am metricly challenged, so someone else can convert it more acurately.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/w...-shooting.html

COPENHAGEN, Denmark – Danish soldiers killed an Iraqi man after the truck he was driving didn't slow down as it approached their checkpoint, the military said Friday.......A spokesman for the Army Operational Command said the soldiers fired warning shots at the truck to make it slow down. When it didn't, they opened fire, killing the driver. A passenger in the truck was wounded and taken into custody.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...5111%2C00.html

Two US soldiers were killed and nine injured yesterday in an attack on an army checkpoint in the troubled Iraqi town of Falluja.......
......In yesterday's clash the troops came under attack on a road leading into the town. Gunmen in two cars drove up to checkpoint only hours after it had been set up late on Monday night and opened fire on the troops.


http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/4-4-2003-38612.asp

The Arabic TV station al-Jazeera broadcast videos of two Iraqi women vowing to carry out suicide attacks yesterday after three American special forces soldiers and two Iraqis were killed when a car bomb exploded at a checkpoint in central Iraq.

A pregnant Iraqi woman stepped out of the car as it approached the checkpoint and began "screaming in fear", officers at US central command in Qatar said.

Moments later the car exploded, killing three soldiers, the pregnant woman and the driver. Two American soldiers were injured.

I could post dozens of checkpoint killings of Iraqis and soldiers, but you get the idea. It is what the terrs want.

cjester27

This may help someone. Article from News24 (I think out of South Africa):
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/I...671944,00.html

Specifically, a part of the article states the following:
When Sgrena was kidnapped on February 4 she was writing an article on refugees from Fallujah seeking shelter at a Baghdad mosque after US forces bombed the former Sunni rebel stronghold.

Beowulf

Yeah, I saw that.
It amuses me that people call the freedom fighters of Iraq "terrorists" while we are the terrorists. We attacked and invaded their country without provocation, killed 100,000 of their people, MOST being women and children, and we still have apologists.
The first thing our military did upon attacking Fallujah was shut down the hospitals, so the extent of civilian casualties can be hidden.
Brutal.

Codger

Most of the "freedom fighters" you refer to ar from other nations. They are not Iraqis. Syria, Lybia, Saudi, etc.

Beowulf

Perhaps.
But we wouldn't be here without the help of the French during the Revolutionary War.

Codger

Perhaps that is true, but the French would not be "there" either if they had fought as terrorists strapping on bombs. They fought as soldiers.

Codger

It helps us when you post a link when you give "facts"and numbers. Please?

Beowulf

No problem. There are many links if you would but google.
http://www.empirenotes.org/hospitals.html
http://www.ncc-1776.com/tle2004/tle298-20041121-07.html

Just keep in mind that I am fiercely protective of our troops. I just want them home from a "war" that is impossible to "win."

Codger

The first link by Rahul Mahajan, the blogger openly states that the power was shut down prior to the attack. This is Military SOP. They did not attack or close the hospitals. Journalists were there, so if they wanted to "hide" their actions, why didn't they get rid of the journalists?

The article from "THE LIBERTARIAN ENTERPRISE" doesn't mention 100,000 women and children killed.

I am fiercely protective of our troops too. I have been there and got the hat. And the tiger stripe BDUs. And several of those things Kerry chunked at the Whitehouse with Hanoi Jane. I can tell you that shots fired from home hurt worse than a hit from an SKS.

Beowulf

Regarding the civilian deaths, will this link do for now?
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6596

Codger

"The figure of 100,000 – estimated by extrapolating the surveyed households’ death toll to the whole population - is based on "conservative assumptions", notes Les Roberts at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, Baltimore, US, who led the study."

Not exactly evidence is it? Extropolated numbers are just that.

Beowulf

So what is your point, Codger?
Are you trying ambiguity in saying there were, shucks, just a FEW civilian casualties?
Just curious.

Codger

I am just leary of basing an informed opinion on supposition and guessed at numbers. A thousand civilian deaths is too much to me. But unless you can get the fighters to move away from urban centers, civilians will die. How many have died at the hands of the other side? Carbombs? It is war, and war never appeals to civilians here or there. Ask the people in Dresden in WWII. War should be fought between soldiers, not civilians.

Beowulf

I agree with you, Codger, and unfortunately there is no chance the guerillas would move away from urban centers and face head-on an infinitely more advanced army. The whole philosophy of guerilla warface is based on will, the will to win, however long it takes.
The British troops were offended that our Minutemen in the Revolutionary War resorted to guerilla tactics instead of standing in front of them like sitting ducks, and we kicked their butts.

Reba

Amen!

Codger

And the British took very little pity on American civilians either. Nor did Grant and Sherman.

Reba

Guerilla tactics and terrorism are not the same thing. American Minutemen targetted other soldiers, not civilians. Also, the British troops might have been more "traditional" but they were brutal too. I recall the massacre at Fort Griswold, the burning of New London, and the British prison ships where Revolutionists were cruelly treated.

Beowulf

True, Reba, and the British called US terrorists.
In the Revolutionary War, Americans executed those sympathetic with the Crown. The Iraq guerillas are doing the same thing in their country, killing those aiding and abetting the enemy, with carbombs. If we can drop a huge bomb on a town and shrug off civilian deaths as "collateral damage," then they can too.
Tragic.

Codger

Just out of curiosity, have you ever been in combat? Just curious.

Beowulf

Nope, thank God.
I was classified 1-A though, lol, right after I graduated high school in '71. Imagine the fun I had with that.

Codger

Since the draft didn't end until '75, I am guessing that you chose not to serve. A lot of men fled to Canada then. And a lot used student deferments. It is hard for someone who has never been in combat, or even been in the armed services to understand either combat or serving in the military. Thanks. It helps me to understand you perspective better.

Beowulf

Huh???
Lol, Codger, I am DEAF!
Have been since I was two years old.
That was the point of my last post---imagine a deafie getting a draft notice!
Make me wonder how many other people it happened to, eh.

Reba

Getting a draft notice is not the same as being inducted. Obviously, many men who were not qualified for military service got draft notices. Then, they had their physical exams, or provided their documentation to the boards, and were re-classified.

Codger

Huh??? Beo, then you were not classified as 1A, but rather had a medical deferment, 4F. Right? At any rate, I had no intention of impuning you for not serving. I simply pointed out that people who have not served have a difficult time understanding combat or those who do or have served. That's all.

Reba

Can you please give me documented examples of events by American Patriots to Crown Loyalists that would be equivalent to acts of terrorism in Iraq? I gave you specific events, so I assume you can do the same for me. (I can give you more details if you want to start a new thread.)