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Unread 05-01-2013, 11:33 PM   #1 (permalink)
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747 Cargo Plane Crash in Afghanistan


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A civilian cargo aircraft crashed at Bagram Air Field near the Afghan capital Kabul on Monday, killing all seven people aboard. The plane came down shortly after take-off and crashed within the boundaries of the US-run airbase, a NATO spokesperson at the base said. The Taliban quickly claimed responsibility for the crash, but the coalition dismissed the claim as "false" in a statement to AP. The cause of the crash is being investigated by emergency crews, but no sign of insurgent activity in the area was spotted at the time, the statement added.
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Unread 05-01-2013, 11:43 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I heard from a couple of Air Force loadmasters that it looked like a major cargo shift. That would either be extreme negligence or sabotage.
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Unread 05-01-2013, 11:48 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I heard from a couple of Air Force loadmasters that it looked like a major cargo shift. That would either be extreme negligence or sabotage.
that was my thought. the way it suddenly changed direction during take-off does definitely look like a major cargo shift. I'm guessing something that keeps cargo in place snapped off.
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Unread 05-02-2013, 12:00 AM   #4 (permalink)
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that was my thought. the way it suddenly changed direction during take-off does definitely look like a major cargo shift. I'm guessing something that keeps cargo in place snapped off.
The cargo floor has places to lock the cargo in place. The pallets are either covered with single straps or webbed netting. They are locked into the tracks on the floor/deck. They are loaded in order by weight for even distribution. If one pallet breaks loose and hits another, that shifts thousands of pounds in seconds. That throws the plane off balance.

TCS rode in a smaller version military cargo plane six times. He rode with the rest of his team in the cargo area, along the fuselage. Even the weight of the passengers is carefully distributed.
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Unread 05-02-2013, 12:39 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Why can't pilot recovering from a stall by dive, just like this;



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Unread 05-02-2013, 12:43 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Why can't pilot recovering from a stall by dive, just like this;

http://www.controlchat.com/wp-conten...l-recovery.jpg

in the pix - let's see if the plane can do that with improper weight distribution. plus - not enough altitude to recover from a stall.

in the video - it appears that the plane stalled while it's on sharp right turn and then a pilot attempted to recover by evening it out but too bad there's not enough altitude to level off.
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Unread 05-02-2013, 02:10 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Because of the area, Cargo planes take off at a very steep angle. (From news) A major cargo shift would be extremely difficult to overcome. Former TSB guy said engines could be heard revving and trying to recover. Dunno.
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Unread 05-02-2013, 07:46 AM   #8 (permalink)
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That video was quite something to watch.
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Unread 05-02-2013, 08:30 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Why can't pilot recovering from a stall by dive, just like this;

http://www.controlchat.com/wp-conten...l-recovery.jpg

Well... that was a 747 loaded up with MRAPS (up armored HMMVs). Considering this weight shift, there simply wasn't enough height to recover.
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Unread 05-02-2013, 09:45 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I heard from a couple of Air Force loadmasters that it looked like a major cargo shift. That would either be extreme negligence or sabotage.
Then wouldn't that mean in was an inside job if was sabotage? How else would someone be able to pull that off? I did this too, I hope we're wrong.
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Unread 05-02-2013, 09:46 AM   #11 (permalink)
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That video was quite something to watch.
it really looks like something from action movie w/ a mind-blowing visual effect. can't believe this is... actually real.
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Unread 05-02-2013, 09:47 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Then wouldn't that mean in was an inside job if was sabotage? How else would someone be able to pull that off? I did this too, I hope we're wrong.
simple - not securing a cargo load properly.
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Unread 05-02-2013, 10:25 PM   #13 (permalink)
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it really looks like something from action movie w/ a mind-blowing visual effect. can't believe this is... actually real.
Same it was unreal to watch the whole event unfold in every detail.
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Unread 05-03-2013, 04:15 PM   #14 (permalink)
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basically from reading various news, one guy who is expert about cargo flights, he said that during the take off and try to go upward, the cargo straps may snapped and break away and start rolling toward the tail of the plane which causing to shifted the weight so there's no way to recover from stalled plane, it's impossible. So, sometime the straps may malfunctions, bolts failed, hooks failed or whatever. The cargo weight maybe evenly distributed while on ground but when take off...thing changed inside.
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Unread 05-04-2013, 08:23 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Expert looks at 'confluence of circumstances' in Bagram crash - CNN.com
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(CNN) -- Four days after a U.S. civilian-operated cargo jet plunged into the ground shortly after takeoff from Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan, killing all seven people aboard, one expert said that a number of factors likely were involved in the incident.

"Accidents, of which this was among the worst that I've ever seen, are typically a confluence of circumstances of seemingly unrelated events, which all coalesce to create a disaster," said Arthur Rosenberg, a pilot, engineer and partner in the New York-based law firm, Soberman & Rosenberg.

The doomed plane's final moments appear to have been captured by a dashboard camera inside a vehicle on the base.

The approximately three-minute video shows what appears to be the National Airlines jet starting its climb at 11:20 a.m. local time Monday from the base.

National Air Cargo, the parent of National Airlines, said the flight had refueled at Bagram en route from Camp Bastian, a British military base in Afghanistan, to Dubai in the United Arab Emirates.

National said the aircraft had landed uneventfully in Bagram and no additional cargo or people were taken on there, it said.

Prior to departure, the cargo was reinspected, it added.

"The cargo contained within the aircraft was properly loaded and secured, and had passed all necessary inspections prior to departing Camp Bastian," the company said in a statement posted on its website.

It identified the crew members as two pilots, two first officers, a loadmaster and two people involved in maintenance.

U.S. military plane crashes in Kyrgyzstan

The pilots were likely doing a "maximum performance takeoff" in an attempt to climb to altitude as quickly as possible, thereby limiting exposure to any attempts to shoot it down, Rosenberg said Friday, citing the jet's pitch attitude, which he said appeared higher than normal.

National Airlines, which specializes in moving freight for the military and businesses, did not immediately return a call asking about whether the pilots had, in fact, performed such a takeoff.

About 12 seconds into the video, the Boeing 747-400 appears to stall, rolls from side to side, and drops.

At 23 seconds, the plane crashes nose first into the ground off the side of the road, erupting into a ball of orange flame and black smoke.

CNN cannot confirm the video's authenticity. It bears the date 2013/02/01, but date stamps can easily be inaccurate.

The cargo aboard ill-fated Flight NCR102 included five mine-resistant, ambush-protected vehicles that were being taken out of Afghanistan as part of the drawdown of U.S. forces, said Shirley Kaufman of National Air Cargo.

MRAPs can weigh 12 tons to 24 tons apiece, depending on the model, according to a 2011 Congressional Research Service report.

That would mean the MRAPs had a total weight of at least 60 tons, which is within the jet's specifications, according to Boeing.

If the takeoff had been rougher than usual, "it could have caused the cargo in the back of the plane to become loose," Rosenberg said. If that happened, and the cargo slid to the rear of the plane, it could have left the plane with an improper weight and balance, he said.

He compared that situation with what happens when a heavy person and a light person get on either end of a seesaw. "The light person is never going to get the heavy person off the ground," he said.

In the case of cargo that was not properly placed or secured, "You've got a big, heavy person at the end of the airplane, which outweighs the flight control's capacity to override that weight."

Rosenberg's law firm specializes in litigation stemming from plane crashes. He does not have direct knowledge from the investigation.

The critical role of the loadmaster in such flights was outlined in a posting published last month on Bagram's website.

"When you are a pilot flying a C-130 Hercules over potentially hostile territory, the last thing you need to worry about is whether your cargo is secure," it says. "That's why each sortie the 774th Expeditionary Airlift Squadron flies includes two loadmasters."

They are responsible for checking all the systems in the rear of the aircraft and overseeing the loading of the cargo, then making sure it stays that way, it says.

"Upon takeoff, we'll be looking back at the cargo until we get off the ground, making sure none of the chains break or pop out," Airman 1st Class Michael Brown says in the airfield's story. "If they do, we let the pilots know... and we taxi back."

"There's a lot of trust that we put in our loadmasters," said Capt. Kenneth Pedersen, 774th EAS aircraft commander, in the same story. "They're pretty autonomous ... making sure the cargo is secure and loaded correctly."

Other possible contributors to the crash include malfunction of the flaps on the wings, or some other flight-control system or even a massive loss of power, Rosenberg said.

But Rosenberg said he considered the last possibility to be the least likely, given the redundancy built into the four-engine jet. "It's a fantastic plane," he said.

The video leaves no doubt that, whatever the cause, the plane wound up flying too slow to generate sufficient lift on the wings to keep the airplane aloft, he said.

"In all my years of being involved in aerospace and piloting and litigation, I have never, ever, ever seen such a dramatic crash sequence as this one," he said. "It really is nauseating to look at, a monster like that falling out of the sky. That's not supposed to happen."

Rosenberg predicted that the cockpit voice recorder and digital data recorder will provide investigators with the answers to the questions they are asking.

In its statement, National Air Cargo said it "will not speculate as to the cause of the accident," and that it was fully cooperating with authorities as the investigation continues.
one thing that has been bothering me is that it can't be improper weight distribution because these guys are well-trained and thorough. they have a great system and procedure to ensure that everything's in order. it's so effective and great that we rarely hear of cargo plane crashing.

a plausible scenario? a pilot had a black-out? fainted? heart attack?
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Unread 05-04-2013, 09:04 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Why can't pilot recovering from a stall by dive, just like this;

http://www.controlchat.com/wp-conten...l-recovery.jpg

There was not enough room to recover, the plane did not get the high up enough .
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Unread 05-04-2013, 09:32 PM   #17 (permalink)
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...a plausible scenario? a pilot had a black-out? fainted? heart attack?
There were two pilots.
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Unread 05-04-2013, 09:32 PM   #18 (permalink)
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There were two pilots.
a bit too late for copilot to take over.

would be nice to talk to somebody who is familiar with a take-off procedure for a cargo plane like this.
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Unread 05-04-2013, 09:44 PM   #19 (permalink)
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a bit too late for copilot to take over.

would be nice to talk to somebody who is familiar with a take-off procedure for a cargo plane like this.
If the pilot just passed out, the other pilot takes over immediately. If the cargo shifted instead of the pilot passing out, that's a different situation. There would be no way to manually overcome that.
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Unread 05-04-2013, 09:46 PM   #20 (permalink)
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since this was a Boeing 747-400 plane... just found a video with same plane... of course different configuration but probably same cockpits

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Unread 05-04-2013, 09:46 PM   #21 (permalink)
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If the pilot just passed out, the other pilot takes over immediately. If the cargo shifted instead of the pilot passing out, that's a different situation. There would be no way to manually overcome that.
right but somehow I think copilot didn't notice till then.
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Unread 05-04-2013, 09:57 PM   #22 (permalink)
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right but somehow I think copilot didn't notice till then.
If you notice, both pilots interact constantly at take off.
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Unread 05-04-2013, 10:01 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Expert looks at 'confluence of circumstances' in Bagram crash - CNN.com


one thing that has been bothering me is that it can't be improper weight distribution because these guys are well-trained and thorough. they have a great system and procedure to ensure that everything's in order. it's so effective and great that we rarely hear of cargo plane crashing.

a plausible scenario? a pilot had a black-out? fainted? heart attack?
I have flown in loaded military cargo planes a number of times. Yes, load masters do a fantastic job. Slings and netting are inspected, tested, and tagged on a regular schedule. But, occasionally they fail when put under extreme stress that is not visible to the human eye. If a heavy object rolls back into another, the combined weight starts a quick chain reaction.

A few years ago I had a 10,000 lb strap sling hooked to my Jeep and the other to a small stump. It snapped. Now I know that my Jeep and/or the stump could not put that much tension on it. It had a small insignificant cut on it.
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Unread 05-04-2013, 10:02 PM   #24 (permalink)
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If you notice, both pilots interact constantly at take off.
but the copilot is not touching the handle - "hand off"
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Unread 05-04-2013, 10:05 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Inside job? Let the conspiracies begin!
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Unread 05-04-2013, 10:12 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Inside job? Let the conspiracies begin!
paging Beowulf! paging Beowulf!
Reba likes this.
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Unread 05-05-2013, 06:22 AM   #27 (permalink)
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I heard from a couple of Air Force loadmasters that it looked like a major cargo shift. That would either be extreme negligence or sabotage.
Explain what major cargo shift means?
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Unread 05-05-2013, 01:14 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Explain what major cargo shift means?
It is as if two large men were in a small boat. One in front, one in back. It is balanced and safe. The front man stands up and trips, falls backward and joins the other man. The combined weight tilts the boat backward and goes underwater at the stern.
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Unread 05-06-2013, 09:22 PM   #29 (permalink)
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It is as if two large men were in a small boat. One in front, one in back. It is balanced and safe. The front man stands up and trips, falls backward and joins the other man. The combined weight tilts the boat backward and goes underwater at the stern.
Ohh I got it. So that's mean load wrong place due out of balanced or strap was not locked or broke out?
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Unread 05-06-2013, 10:12 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Ohh I got it. So that's mean load wrong place due out of balanced or strap was not locked or broke out?
Yes, but in this case probably not a balance problem. We may never find out the actual cause of the crash if the black boxes that hold the flight data is damaged.
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