Trayvon Case Investigation - Page 8

rolling7 · 04-12-2012, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sara1981

CBS news evening says no bonds for Zimmerman! HIs court date on May 29

This is a smart lawyer trick. Zimmerman's lawyer wants him in jail to protect him.

**TXgolfer** · 04-12-2012, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatdidyousay!

The cops told people that where doing the neighborhood watch not to bring a gun with them. If you are working with the police department the cops can tell you what to do.

This neighborhood watch was not working with the PD....

whatdidyousay! · 04-12-2012, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

I am sitting here wondering why the affidavit mentions that Zimmerman was "profiling".

Is reporting suspicious behaviour now considered "profiling"? Also, the affidavit claims the 911 dispatcher told Zimmerman to stop following Martin.

The dispatcher NEVER gives that command. Once the dispatcher said "We don't need you to do that", Zimmerman replied "Ok" and reportedly began walking back to his car when he was confronted by Martin.

The prosecutor is trying to make it appear that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation. What this means is ... do not report suspicious behaviour to the police or you will be "profiling" and if confronted in a violent manner - it's your own fault.

Violent offenders apparently are not responsible for their own behaviour it seems.

Zimmerman said Trayvon looked like he was on drugs , and that he had something in his pants waistband , And Zimmerman said on the 911 call "the thugs always get away!" Zimmerman called a kid a 'thug' and that is "profiling" Zimmerman did initiated the confrontation, he was following the kid in his car. If someone did that to me I would be ready to fight back in anyway I could. The kid would still be alive if Zimmerman had listen to the cops and not follow him! and Zimmerman would not be in jail right now! Zimmerman got himself in this mess !

whatdidyousay! · 04-12-2012, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by airportcop

Just keep convincing yourself about that! That is why he made the comment that if he had a son he would look like Travon. Also why Holder is involved. Election time!!!!

Obama making that statement is not going to made diffidence in how the jury vote!!

whatdidyousay! · 04-12-2012, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

do you realize that such juror can be filtered out in the first place? both defense lawyer and prosecutor will heavily interview each juror and can remove them if they felt that juror is too emotional or mentally disturbed and cannot perform his/her duty in a lawful manner.

My younger sister was called for jury duty. The case was about a person drowning and people where asked if lost anyone in a drowning accident. My sister said she had cousin that dies in a drowning accident and she was removed from the jury pool.

whatdidyousay! · 04-12-2012, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

This neighborhood watch was not working with the PD....

I heard on the TV that the cops spoke to the neighborhood watch and told them what they where they could do and not do on a watch!

Steinhauer · 04-12-2012, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatdidyousay!

Zimmerman said Trayvon looked like he was on drugs , and that he had something in his pants waistband , And Zimmerman said on the 911 call "the thugs always get away!" Zimmerman called a kid a 'thug' and that is "profiling" Zimmerman did initiated the confrontation, he was following the kid in his car. If someone did that to me I would be ready to fight back in anyway I could. The kid would still be alive if Zimmerman had listen to the cops and not follow him! and Zimmerman would not be in jail right now! Zimmerman got himself in this mess !

Actually, if Martin had decided not to confront Zimmerman in a violent manner, Martin would be alive today.

**Foxrac** · 04-12-2012, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Actually, if Martin had decided not to confront Zimmerman in a violent manner, Martin would be alive today.

No, Zimmerman confronted Martin in first place the put his life in fear and forced him to whatever in self defense.

**Jiro** · 04-12-2012, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

She said "For example, alibi is an affirmative defense". The court says its not. *shrug*
You did inspire a new Condescending Wonka meme though.

did you know "she" represents the court? she is basically saying she can simply swat away a silly alibi as affirmative defense or whatever the defense has. As she said.... "We have to have a reasonable certainty of conviction before we file charges – any time there is an affirmative defense, and there are numerous affirmative defenses that can be asserted before the arrest, immediately after the arrest, during the trial. We’ve had them come up in the middle of trial, haven’t we? My fellow prosecutors that sit here, we’ve all faced this before."

Prosecutor is simply stating that they are extremely confident that they have enough to convict him.

I'm sorry that this discussion has taken a very awkward turn into a farce. Let's not forget that you are the one who said Prosecutor Corey misspoke or made an erroneous statement and that she must have missed a day or two at law school.

**TXgolfer** · 04-12-2012, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

did you know "she" represents the court? she is basically saying she can simply swat away a silly alibi as affirmative defense or whatever the defense has. As she said.... "We have to have a reasonable certainty of conviction before we file charges – any time there is an affirmative defense, and there are numerous affirmative defenses that can be asserted before the arrest, immediately after the arrest, during the trial. We’ve had them come up in the middle of trial, haven’t we? My fellow prosecutors that sit here, we’ve all faced this before."

Prosecutor is simply stating that they are extremely confident that they have enough to convict him.

I'm sorry that this discussion has taken a very awkward turn into a farce. Let's not forget that you are the one who said Prosecutor Corey misspoke or made an erroneous statement and that she must have missed a day or two at law school.

I haven't forgotten it..I stand by it.

**Jiro** · 04-12-2012, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Gee whiz ... what could ever cause a person to think like that? Hmmmmm ... could it be there were no arrests made in regards to the bounty placed on Zimmerman (a violation of his civil rights), could it be the massive angry mobs screaming "racism!", could it be the misleading facts about the case being published by the MSM?

Uh .... dude

not exactly jumping to conclusions

oh ... and the riots, the store raids .... the threats of riots ... the 2 million +++ screaming for Zimmerman to be arrested ...

no ... no ... no duress there (good lord).

so what do you propose what should we do?

**Jiro** · 04-12-2012, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

I am sitting here wondering why the affidavit mentions that Zimmerman was "profiling".

Is reporting suspicious behaviour now considered "profiling"? Also, the affidavit claims the 911 dispatcher told Zimmerman to stop following Martin.

The dispatcher NEVER gives that command. Once the dispatcher said "We don't need you to do that", Zimmerman replied "Ok" and reportedly began walking back to his car when he was confronted by Martin.

The prosecutor is trying to make it appear that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation. What this means is ... do not report suspicious behaviour to the police or you will be "profiling" and if confronted in a violent manner - it's your own fault.

Violent offenders apparently are not responsible for their own behaviour it seems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

Yeah, I just read that not too long ago.

The money shot from the affidavit:

http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-04/69353440.pdf

Let's look at what a second-degree murder looks like under Florida law defined as:

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

And compare to what Dersh said and how there’s nothing to suggests there's probable cause to believe Zimmerman had a “depraved mind regardless of human life” when he shot Martin. So far, what has transpired based on available facts show them to be consistent with self-defense.

Perhaps what it may end up is that the 2nd degree murder charge won't fly.

I thought you're going to sit and wait to let the professionals and legal system do their job? sounds like ya'all have already jumped to conclusion.

**Jiro** · 04-12-2012, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

New version:

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force unless there is significant public outcry or threat of civil unrest, and unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

I don't mean to sound condescending (which means to talk down to)

oh? since you believe Zimmerman is innocent and the shooting was justified.... you must have seen the evidence that the public haven't seen yet.

Steinhauer · 04-12-2012, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

I thought you're going to sit and wait to let the professionals and legal system do their job? sounds like ya'all have already jumped to conclusion.

Actually, discussing facts and jumping to conclusions are two very different things. You may have noticed questions being asked.

No one has immediately made a conclusion that Zimmerman is guilty in that discussion.

Which, btw, is how the justice system works.

Steinhauer · 04-12-2012, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

oh? since you believe Zimmerman is innocent and the shooting was justified.... you must have seen the evidence that the public haven't seen yet.

Yes Jiro. Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty. I believe him to be innocent until proven otherwise.

**Jiro** · 04-12-2012, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Yes Jiro. Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty. I believe him to be innocent until proven otherwise.

right. and the prosecutor disagrees. that's why he's charged and he'll have his day in court.

**TXgolfer** · 04-12-2012, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

I thought you're going to sit and wait to let the professionals and legal system do their job? sounds like ya'all have already jumped to conclusion.

Yeah, because alot of conclusive sentences begin with "perhaps"

Quote:

Perhaps what it may end up is that the 2nd degree murder charge won't fly.

**Jiro** · 04-12-2012, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Yeah, because alot of conclusive sentences begin with "perhaps"

perhaps... it's best if they wait and hold their thoughts while the professionals do their job. after all... they're the one who kept using "let the professionals do their jobs" line.

**TXgolfer** · 04-12-2012, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer
Yes Jiro. Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty. I believe him to be innocent until proven otherwise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

right. and the prosecutor disagrees. that's why he's charged and he'll have his day in court.

I would hope not.....but you may be right. After all she did say...

Quote:

we told them weeks ago that we would get answers for their questions no matter where the quest led us. and it is the search for justice for trayvon that has brought us to this moment.

**TXgolfer** · 04-12-2012, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

perhaps... it's best if they wait and hold their thoughts while the professionals do their job. after all... they're the one who kept using "let the professionals do their jobs" line.

I see nothing wrong with discussing the facts.

**Jiro** · 04-12-2012, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

I see nothing wrong with discussing the facts.

what facts? most of it is still not released to public yet. that's why they kept saying - "let's wait and let them do their jobs".

sara1981 · 04-13-2012, 12:11 AM

Affidavit says Zimmerman 'profiled' Martin
Affidavit says Zimmerman 'profiled' Martin - CNN.com

Court affidavit: Zimmerman "profiled" Trayvon Martin
Court affidavit: Zimmerman "profiled" Trayvon Martin - CBS News

**TXgolfer** · 04-13-2012, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

what facts? most of it is still not released to public yet. that's why they kept saying - "let's wait and let them do their jobs".

There are no facts yet? You sure? I believe.....like me....they were saying lets not draw conclusions since we are not sure if we have ALL of the facts. I'm pretty sure we all feel that way now as well.

**Jiro** · 04-13-2012, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

There are no facts yet? You sure?

what do you think?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

I believe.....like me....they were saying lets not draw conclusions since we are not sure if we have ALL of the facts. I'm pretty sure we all feel that way now as well.

oh I'm already drawing conclusion. He's a thug because I believe the shooting isn't justified and it was completely preventable.

and just like me... ya'all are already drawing a conclusion that he is innocent and his shooting was justified because Trayvon was beating him up.

**Jiro** · 04-13-2012, 12:37 AM

back to business -

Zimmerman housed apart at jail, makes purchases - CNN.com

Quote:

(CNN) -- George Michael Zimmerman, inmate #201200004452, is living in a cell with 67 square feet of floor space, is allowed to read the Bible and magazines, but has no access to TV, according to officials at the central Florida jail where he is being held.

Zimmerman, charged with second-degree murder in the February 26 shooting death of Trayvon Martin, 17, in Sanford, is segregated from the general population at the John E. Polk Correctional Facility, according to the Seminole County Sheriff's Office.

According to jail records, Zimmerman, 28, has purchased $79.84 in items at the facility's commissary, leaving a balance of $41.16. He's allowed to buy items once a week.

The neighborhood watch volunteer's shopping list included contact lens solution, Irish Spring soap, playing cards, puzzle books, Jolly Ranchers candy, two oranges and other snacks, the sheriff's office said in a news release Thursday.

Public documents in Martin shooting

The facility assesses a $10 booking fee and a $3 per day subsistence fee. The fee is deducted from the inmate's trust account.

Inmates are scheduled for three hours of recreation time per week and are served three meals a day.

According to a booking sheet, Zimmerman weighs 185 pounds and is 5 foot 8 inches tall. Tattoos include theatrical masks and a cross on the chest. He is listed as being unemployed.

Zimmerman's attorney, Mark O'Mara, has not formally asked for his client to be released on bond.

**Jiro** · 04-13-2012, 12:39 AM

Stand your ground: George Zimmerman self-defense hearing could dismiss death charges in Trayvon Martin shooting - Orlando Sentinel

Quote:

George Zimmerman can ask to have the second-degree-murder charge against him dropped without having to stand trial in the death of Trayvon Martin.

Two years ago, the Florida Supreme Court ruled that anyone claiming "stand your ground" immunity in a death, battery or assault case can request a hearing on the evidence.

The hearing allows the prosecution and defense to argue all the elements of self-defense in the case evidence. To get charges dismissed, the accused must convince the judge that a reasonable person would believe that using deadly force or the threat of deadly force was the only way to protect his or her life, court records show.

The state's "stand your ground" law passed in 2005 says:

"A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

In its Dec. 16, 2010, ruling, the state Supreme Court stated that defendants claiming self-defense are entitled to evidentiary hearings to argue that the evidence in their cases proves they had the right to protect themselves.

The most recent of these hearings in Orlando failed.

The case involved a fatal knifing in May 2011 at a popular downtown bar, The Lodge, where Craig Sandhaus claimed he stabbed bouncer Milton Torres to protect his younger brother Eric Sandhaus. The brothers were being ejected when a fight began and Craig Sandhaus stabbed Torres, 25, three times in the heart, pelvis and hip, according to testimony at the hearing.

"I was scared for my brother," Craig Sandhaus said. "The only thing I could possibly do was stab Torres."

Orange County Circuit Judge Alan Apte disagreed in February and ordered Craig Sandhaus to stand trial on a charge of second-degree murder. Apte ruled that Sandhaus could have used less force and that he did not have a carry concealed weapon permit for the knife that was larger than a common folding knife.

A pretrial hearing is set July 30.

A successful hearing in Broward County involved a 2009 confrontation on Interstate 95 between truck driver Julio Abreu Jimenez, who was charged with pulling a gun and threatening another truck driver. After pulling off the highway, Jimenez claimed he drew his weapon only after the other driver left his truck and approached him in a threatening manner, court records show.

The charge of aggravated assault with a firearm was dropped at the end of the one-hour hearing.

"We thought the facts of the case were clear-cut," said Fort Lauderdale attorney Daniel Berman, who began his career with the Orange-Osceola Public Defender's Office. "We were surprised he was even charged."

Berman said he thinks Mark O'Mara, Zimmerman's lawyer, will request an evidentiary hearing as part of his defense of Zimmerman's "stand your ground" claim.

***naisho*** · 04-13-2012, 12:59 AM

I've seen some opinions on the "Stand your ground" Florida law. Some have suggested that the moment he ignored the relay operator's orders to not chase Trayvon, he invalidated the immunity.

I'm no expert in reading the law to determine this issue, but it seems like he has a lot going against him the moment he ignored the requests.

**TXgolfer** · 04-13-2012, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

oh I'm already drawing conclusion. He's a thug because I believe the shooting isn't justified and it was completely preventable.

I see.

Quote:

and just like me... ya'all are already drawing a conclusion that he is innocent and his shooting was justified because Trayvon was beating him up.

Nope. I am still waiting for all the facts. Perhaps Corey has more.....then again maybe she doesn't.

**Jiro** · 04-13-2012, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naisho

I've seen some opinions on the "Stand your ground" Florida law. Some have suggested that the moment he ignored the relay operator's orders to not chase Trayvon, he invalidated the immunity.

oh it's not really because he ignored operator. it's circumstantial at best. one can say that he willfully ignored operator. other can say he acknowledged it with "ok" and was walking back to his car.

this is my basis for his conviction - he had made a series of erroneous judgments that led to tragic death. it began with him recklessly putting himself in danger. by doing that, he is an aggressor, not Trayvon. I believe he must have felt empowered when he was carrying a gun and because of that, he had unhealthy mindset as a cop-wannabe. based on his past history such as security guard job and arrest records, I believe he's a serious danger to society when he's packing a heat and doing a security-related job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by naisho

I'm no expert in reading the law to determine this issue, but it seems like he has a lot going against him the moment he ignored the requests.

at this point, since everything is circumstantial.... it comes down to who the judge/jury believes the most beyond reasonable doubt.... Zimmerman or Prosecutor.

kokonut · 04-13-2012, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Yeah, because alot of conclusive sentences begin with "perhaps"

Kind of funny, tho. Nothing conclusive by saying "perhaps" such and such which could go the other way to "perhaps not." Sounds open ended to me.

04-13-2012, 12:11 AM	#232 (permalink)
sara1981 Registered User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: North Little Rock,Ar Posts: 7,049	Affidavit says Zimmerman 'profiled' Martin Affidavit says Zimmerman 'profiled' Martin - CNN.com Court affidavit: Zimmerman "profiled" Trayvon Martin Court affidavit: Zimmerman "profiled" Trayvon Martin - CBS News __________________

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04-13-2012, 12:59 AM	#237 (permalink)
*naisho* Forum Disorders M.D.,Ph.D Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: 127.0.0.1 Posts: 6,162	I've seen some opinions on the "Stand your ground" Florida law. Some have suggested that the moment he ignored the relay operator's orders to not chase Trayvon, he invalidated the immunity. I'm no expert in reading the law to determine this issue, but it seems like he has a lot going against him the moment he ignored the requests.