Trayvon Case Investigation - Page 7

**Reba** · 04-12-2012, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

(*note* She is speaking in third person here)

Zimmerman faces 2nd degree murder charges - Video on msnbc.com

Just to let you know, the transcript is not complete or accurate. There are some gaps and wrong words in the text.

**Jiro** · 04-12-2012, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Just to let you know, the transcript is not complete or accurate. There are some gaps and wrong words in the text.

that's what I thought so. can you please properly transcribe it? only that specific part about affirmative defense.

**TXgolfer** · 04-12-2012, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Just to let you know, the transcript is not complete or accurate. There are some gaps and wrong words in the text.

Yes ma'am, I am aware of that. The second transcript is more clear.

**TXgolfer** · 04-12-2012, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

Of course they disagreed with Corey. Every judge, prosecutor, and lawyer have their own legal opinion. My law friend works with US Attorney in Philly, involving in homicide/criminal cases.... which is why I asked her (but she disagreed). The ones you spoke to.... do they have experiences in homicide cases?

Let me help you understand what Corey meant in a homicide context. "Alibi is an affirmative defense." That means Zimmerman is not denying that he was there at the scene of shooting. In short - "I did it but I had a legal reason to".... which is Stand Your Ground. Although that sounds like an oxymoron but hey.. what do I know? Corey has seen all cheap tricks in lawyer's playbook and she's ready for it.

So much wrong in your post....

The bold....exactly....that IS an affirmative defense. Alibi says the opposite.

Remember when you posted this..

Quote:

Alibi, which as the Latin translation approximates, states a defendant was “elsewhere” at the time of the alleged crime.

**Reba** · 04-12-2012, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

(*note* She is speaking in third person here)

Zimmerman faces 2nd degree murder charges - Video on msnbc.com

This is more accurate:

In response to question about whether Mr. Wolfinger would have arrived at the same conclusion:

"I speak for Angela Corey and my prosecution team. This is the conclusion that we came to based on our review of the facts and evidence. I'm not sure they were through with the entire investigation at the point where Mr. Wolfinger recused himself from this case.

We have to have a reasonable certainty of conviction before we file charges – any time there is an affirmative defense, and there are numerous affirmative defenses that can be asserted before the arrest, immediately after the arrest, during the trial. We’ve had them come up in the middle of trial, haven’t we? My fellow prosecutors that sit here, we’ve all faced this before. For example, alibi is an affirmative defense. Sometimes that gets put on us in the middle of a trial. So an affirmative defense always makes a prosecution more difficult. We do everything in our power to take the facts we have at hand and prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt."

**TXgolfer** · 04-12-2012, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

This is more accurate:

In response to question about whether Mr. Wolfinger would have arrived at the same conclusion:

"I speak for Angela Corey and my prosecution team. This is the conclusion that we came to based on our review of the facts and evidence. I'm not sure they were through with the entire investigation at the point where Mr. Wolfinger recused himself from this case.

We have to have a reasonable certainty of conviction before we file charges – any time there is an affirmative defense, and there are numerous affirmative defenses that can be asserted before the arrest, immediately after the arrest, during the trial. We’ve had them come up in the middle of trial, haven’t we? My fellow prosecutors that sit here, we’ve all faced this before. For example, alibi is an affirmative defense. Sometimes that's put on us in the middle of a trial. So an affirmative defense always makes a prosecution more difficult. We do everything in our power to take the facts we have at hand and prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt."

sara1981 · 04-12-2012, 01:30 PM

George Zimmerman appears before judge
George Zimmerman appears before judge - CNN.com

George Zimmerman makes first court appearance
George Zimmerman makes first court appearance - CBS News

Travyon Martin's mother Sybrina Fulton says she thinks his shooting was 'an accident'
Travyon Martin's mother Sybrina Fulton says she thinks his shooting was 'an accident' - Crimesider - CBS News

Trayvon Martin: George Zimmerman appears in court
BBC News - Trayvon Martin: George Zimmerman appears in court

Judge finds probable cause to hold George Zimmerman on murder charge in first court appearance since his arrest
Trayvon Martin case: Fears George Zimmerman is 'already convicted' in killing of Florida teen | Mail Online

Trayvon Martin: George Zimmerman charged with second degree murder
Video: Trayvon Martin: George Zimmerman charged with second degree murder - Telegraph

Shooter In Court Over Florida Teen's Murder
Trayvon Martin: US Prosecutor Annnounces Charge Against George Zimmerman Who Shot Teenager | World News | Sky News

we will kept that news update till verdict

**Jiro** · 04-12-2012, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

This is more accurate:

In response to question about whether Mr. Wolfinger would have arrived at the same conclusion:

"I speak for Angela Corey and my prosecution team. This is the conclusion that we came to based on our review of the facts and evidence. I'm not sure they were through with the entire investigation at the point where Mr. Wolfinger recused himself from this case.

We have to have a reasonable certainty of conviction before we file charges – any time there is an affirmative defense, and there are numerous affirmative defenses that can be asserted before the arrest, immediately after the arrest, during the trial. We’ve had them come up in the middle of trial, haven’t we? My fellow prosecutors that sit here, we’ve all faced this before. For example, alibi is an affirmative defense. Sometimes that gets put on us in the middle of a trial. So an affirmative defense always makes a prosecution more difficult. We do everything in our power to take the facts we have at hand and prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt."

so with that...

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

So much wrong in your post....

The bold....exactly....that IS an affirmative defense. Alibi says the opposite.

Remember when you posted this..

It is not I who are wrong. You are basically saying this prosecutor is wrong. I don't believe he/she misspoke. He/she is just saying "for example...... " and saying that defense lawyer will always every trick in his playbook just to make prosecutor's job harder.

**Jiro** · 04-12-2012, 02:06 PM

from Sara's link -

Quote:

George Zimmerman's new attorney is Mark O'Mara, who has been practicing law in Florida for 28 years.

According to his bio on his practice’s website, he is certified as a specialist in criminal, divorce and family law.

He also serves as a legal analyst on news station WKMG, where he appeared numerous times to weigh in on the Casey Anthony trial.

A former prosecutor, O’Mara now represents clients in various criminal cases, including DUI, traffic and divorce proceedings.

He serves as the president of the Seminole County Bar Association and is a legal analyst for Florida news station WKMG.

O'Mara took over as Zimmerman’s legal counsel after his original attorneys, Craig Sonner and Hal Uhrig said they were withdrawing from the case on Tuesday.

oh my..... I wonder if Zimmerman has lost his mind or not. In case of shooting case like this, I would hire a lawyer with a very specific expertise in a very specific type of case. I already have a number in my cellphone for best lawyer in NJ specializing in gun-related cases. My friend had used him to resolve a silly quibbling with police captain with a threat of federal investigation because of risk of going to jail.

**Reba** · 04-12-2012, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

from Sara's link -

oh my..... I wonder if Zimmerman has lost his mind or not. In case of shooting case like this, I would hire a lawyer with a very specific expertise in a very specific type of case. I already have a number in my cellphone for best lawyer in NJ specializing in gun-related cases. My friend had used him to resolve a silly quibbling with police captain with a threat of federal investigation because of risk of going to jail.

Sometimes it depends on what you can afford.

**Jiro** · 04-12-2012, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Sometimes it depends on what you can afford.

life sentence without parole vs my pocket..... a very easy choice for me

but in Zimmerman's case, he has already gone thru several lawyers in a very short time. Most of them are a quack. He must have really gave up in life.

**Reba** · 04-12-2012, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

life sentence without parole vs my pocket..... a very easy choice for me

I understand but some people simply don't have the financial resources to hire a dream team.

**Jiro** · 04-12-2012, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

I understand but some people simply don't have the financial resources to hire a dream team.

right but in most shooting cases in America, they didn't have a dream team. it's just a lawyer with specific expertise so it would be prudent for Zimmerman to hire such one.... not a general lawyer.

one would think NRA or gun supporter groups would send in a pro-bono lawyer but since they're not touching this with a ten-foot pole.... looks like they suspect that Zimmerman's shooting isn't justified. or just didn't want to align themselves with a vigilante even if it's justified.

VacationGuy234 · 04-12-2012, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

do you realize that such juror can be filtered out in the first place? both defense lawyer and prosecutor will heavily interview each juror and can remove them if they felt that juror is too emotional or mentally disturbed and cannot perform his/her duty in a lawful manner.

That's too funny....

rockin'robin · 04-12-2012, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

right but in most shooting cases in America, they didn't have a dream team. it's just a lawyer with specific expertise so it would be prudent for Zimmerman to hire such one.... not a general lawyer.

one would think NRA or gun supporter groups would send in a pro-bono lawyer but since they're not touching this with a ten-foot pole.... looks like they suspect that Zimmerman's shooting isn't justified. or just didn't want to align themselves with a vigilante even if it's justified.

To note....there are thousands & thousands of people from all walks of life that believe the shooting IS justified....and if Ms Corey had stated that "no charges would be filed"....everyone knows the riots that would have again erupted...in much worse force than they did already......hence....agree to arrest Zimmerman and have a trial....and I believe that trial will be long forthcoming......

Of course, he (Zimmerman) is already convicted by the black community....and if he is found "not guilty" by a jury....then again, the riots, shootings, marches, etc., etc., will erupt again.

Whether Zimmerman is in fact guilty or not guilty, I honestly do not know....and a man's life is already hanging in the balance....one has already lost his, whether is was his own fault or not.

**Jiro** · 04-12-2012, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockin'robin

To note....there are thousands & thousands of people from all walks of life that believe the shooting IS justified....and if Ms Corey had stated that "no charges would be filed"....everyone knows the riots that would have again erupted...in much worse force than they did already......hence....agree to arrest Zimmerman and have a trial....and I believe that trial will be long forthcoming......

Of course, he (Zimmerman) is already convicted by the black community....and if he is found "not guilty" by a jury....then again, the riots, shootings, marches, etc., etc., will erupt again.

Whether Zimmerman is in fact guilty or not guilty, I honestly do not know....and a man's life is already hanging in the balance....one has already lost his, whether is was his own fault or not.

Looking at past incidents like Casey Anthony, Oscar Grant, Charles Hill, OJ Simpson, Ramarley Graham, Amadou Diallo, and Sean Bell.... I wouldn't worry about some riots. It will be forgotten shortly after trial. Funny how we tend to treat each "horrible" incident like it's the next "civil war" that would be worse than last time.

sara1981 · 04-12-2012, 03:48 PM

George Zimmerman appears before judge in Trayvon Martin case
George Zimmerman appears before judge in Trayvon Martin case - CNN.com

Rodney King pleads for calm in Trayvon Martin case
Rodney King pleads for calm in Trayvon Martin case - CNN.com

Nation divided over Trayvon Martin case?
Nation divided over Trayvon Martin case? - CNN.com

**TXgolfer** · 04-12-2012, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

so with that...

It is not I who are wrong. You are basically saying this prosecutor is wrong. I don't believe he/she misspoke. He/she is just saying "for example...... " and saying that defense lawyer will always every trick in his playbook just to make prosecutor's job harder.

Exactly, she is saying "for example.....". And the courts have said her example is wrong.

**Jiro** · 04-12-2012, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Exactly, she is saying "for example.....". And the courts have said her example is wrong.

that's not exactly what you said. you were saying her statement is wrong and that she "missed" a day or two at law school about alibi and affirmative defense.

The prosecutor was simply saying that they are prepared for that farce if defense lawyer uses it.

**TXgolfer** · 04-12-2012, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

that's not exactly what you said. you were saying her statement is wrong and that she "missed" a day or two at law school about alibi and affirmative defense.

The prosecutor was simply saying that they are prepared for that farce if defense lawyer uses it.

She said "For example, alibi is an affirmative defense". The court says its not. *shrug*
You did inspire a new Condescending Wonka meme though.

**TXgolfer** · 04-12-2012, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

that's not exactly what you said. you were saying her statement is wrong and that she "missed" a day or two at law school about alibi and affirmative defense.

The prosecutor was simply saying that they are prepared for that farce if defense lawyer uses it.

To add.... That is just ridiculous.

why would anyone be expecting an alibi defense in a case where the defendant has not denied being at the scene.

sara1981 · 04-12-2012, 05:36 PM

CBS news evening says no bonds for Zimmerman! HIs court date on May 29

Steinhauer · 04-12-2012, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

oh my.... jumping to conclusion yourself that he was charged under duress

Gee whiz ... what could ever cause a person to think like that? Hmmmmm ... could it be there were no arrests made in regards to the bounty placed on Zimmerman (a violation of his civil rights), could it be the massive angry mobs screaming "racism!", could it be the misleading facts about the case being published by the MSM?

Uh .... dude

not exactly jumping to conclusions

oh ... and the riots, the store raids .... the threats of riots ... the 2 million +++ screaming for Zimmerman to be arrested ...

no ... no ... no duress there (good lord).

Steinhauer · 04-12-2012, 07:40 PM

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

New version:

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force unless there is significant public outcry or threat of civil unrest, and unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

I don't mean to sound condescending (which means to talk down to)

**TXgolfer** · 04-12-2012, 08:04 PM

The Dersh

Harvard Prof. Alan Dershowitz: Zimmerman Arrest Affidavit ‘Irresponsible And Unethical’ | Mediaite

Steinhauer · 04-12-2012, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

The Dersh

Harvard Prof. Alan Dershowitz: Zimmerman Arrest Affidavit ‘Irresponsible And Unethical’ | Mediaite

I am sitting here wondering why the affidavit mentions that Zimmerman was "profiling".

Is reporting suspicious behaviour now considered "profiling"? Also, the affidavit claims the 911 dispatcher told Zimmerman to stop following Martin.

The dispatcher NEVER gives that command. Once the dispatcher said "We don't need you to do that", Zimmerman replied "Ok" and reportedly began walking back to his car when he was confronted by Martin.

The prosecutor is trying to make it appear that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation. What this means is ... do not report suspicious behaviour to the police or you will be "profiling" and if confronted in a violent manner - it's your own fault.

Violent offenders apparently are not responsible for their own behaviour it seems.

kokonut · 04-12-2012, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

The Dersh

Harvard Prof. Alan Dershowitz: Zimmerman Arrest Affidavit ‘Irresponsible And Unethical’ | Mediaite

Yeah, I just read that not too long ago.

The money shot from the affidavit:

Quote:

Zimmerman confronted martin and a struggel ensued. Witnesses heard people arguing and what sound like a struggle. During this time period witnesses heard numerous calls for help and some of these were recorded in 911 calls to police. Trayvon Martin's mother has reviewed the 911 calls and identified the voice crying for help as Trayvon Martin's voice.

Zimmerman shot Martin in the chest. when police arrived Zimmerman admitted shooting Martin. Officers recovered a gun from a holster inside Zimmerman's waistband. A fired casing that was recovered at the scene was determined to have been fired from the firearm.

http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-04/69353440.pdf

Let's look at what a second-degree murder looks like under Florida law defined as:

Quote:

"The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual."

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

And compare to what Dersh said and how there’s nothing to suggests there's probable cause to believe Zimmerman had a “depraved mind regardless of human life” when he shot Martin. So far, what has transpired based on available facts show them to be consistent with self-defense.

Perhaps what it may end up is that the 2nd degree murder charge won't fly.

Steinhauer · 04-12-2012, 08:37 PM

Now they have to produce (doctor) evidence of a depraved mind with disregard for human life.

Now, wouldn't that be kind of hard to do considering Zimmerman was a neighborhood watch captain (meaning he had a high regard for the lives of his neighbors?)

whatdidyousay! · 04-12-2012, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by airportcop

By the way, the cops can't tell anyone who has a concealed carry permit to not carry their gun.

The cops told people that where doing the neighborhood watch not to bring a gun with them. If you are working with the police department the cops can tell you what to do.

**Foxrac** · 04-12-2012, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by airportcop

By the way, the cops can't tell anyone who has a concealed carry permit to not carry their gun.

Some states have no CCW law or extremely restricted.

04-12-2012, 01:30 PM	#187 (permalink)
sara1981 Registered User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: North Little Rock,Ar Posts: 7,049	George Zimmerman appears before judge George Zimmerman appears before judge - CNN.com George Zimmerman makes first court appearance George Zimmerman makes first court appearance - CBS News Travyon Martin's mother Sybrina Fulton says she thinks his shooting was 'an accident' Travyon Martin's mother Sybrina Fulton says she thinks his shooting was 'an accident' - Crimesider - CBS News Trayvon Martin: George Zimmerman appears in court BBC News - Trayvon Martin: George Zimmerman appears in court Judge finds probable cause to hold George Zimmerman on murder charge in first court appearance since his arrest Trayvon Martin case: Fears George Zimmerman is 'already convicted' in killing of Florida teen \| Mail Online Trayvon Martin: George Zimmerman charged with second degree murder Video: Trayvon Martin: George Zimmerman charged with second degree murder - Telegraph Shooter In Court Over Florida Teen's Murder Trayvon Martin: US Prosecutor Annnounces Charge Against George Zimmerman Who Shot Teenager \| World News \| Sky News we will kept that news update till verdict __________________

04-12-2012, 03:48 PM	#197 (permalink)
sara1981 Registered User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: North Little Rock,Ar Posts: 7,049	George Zimmerman appears before judge in Trayvon Martin case George Zimmerman appears before judge in Trayvon Martin case - CNN.com Rodney King pleads for calm in Trayvon Martin case Rodney King pleads for calm in Trayvon Martin case - CNN.com Nation divided over Trayvon Martin case? Nation divided over Trayvon Martin case? - CNN.com __________________

04-12-2012, 05:36 PM	#202 (permalink)
sara1981 Registered User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: North Little Rock,Ar Posts: 7,049	CBS news evening says no bonds for Zimmerman! HIs court date on May 29 __________________

04-12-2012, 07:40 PM	#204 (permalink)
Steinhauer Banned Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 8,191 Blog Entries: 1	(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant. New version: (1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force unless there is significant public outcry or threat of civil unrest, and unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant. I don't mean to sound condescending (which means to talk down to) airportcop likes this.

04-12-2012, 08:04 PM	#205 (permalink)
TXgolfer Dream Weaver Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Everywhere Posts: 17,605	The Dersh Harvard Prof. Alan Dershowitz: Zimmerman Arrest Affidavit ‘Irresponsible And Unethical’ \| Mediaite __________________ Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. - Romans 12:21 Sometimes at night, I see their faces. I feel the traces they've left on my soul

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04-12-2012, 08:37 PM	#208 (permalink)
Steinhauer Banned Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 8,191 Blog Entries: 1	Now they have to produce (doctor) evidence of a depraved mind with disregard for human life. Now, wouldn't that be kind of hard to do considering Zimmerman was a neighborhood watch captain (meaning he had a high regard for the lives of his neighbors?)

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