Trayvon Case Investigation - Page 19

Steinhauer · 04-17-2012, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSign

By the bolded statement above, aren't you doing the same thing you are stating that Jiro is doing but with a different conclusion?

No.

Until or IF he is proven guilty, he is completely innocent.

I think his accusers are not innocent though (I am referring to the MSM). They are guilty of stirring up racial discord, they are guilty of heavily editing/altering the 911 call, they are guilty of releasing a heavily grainy video claiming GZ was not injured (thereby implying the police, the medical workers and the Prosecutor Wolfinger all covered this up).

Now, they are claiming Zimmerman is lying about Trayvon following him to his car after he hung up with the 911 dispatcher.

You even have people claimimg Trayvon was defending himself from Zimmerman and that was why he was slamming Zimmerman's head into the pavement.

Ironic isn't it? They want to repeal the SYG law but they want to use it to defend Trayvon's actions.

CSign · 04-17-2012, 10:56 PM

The whole situation is very tricky.

Hopefully some good will come out of this such as legislation regarding the rules and regulations of neighborhood watch groups. As some have addressed, this situation could have been avoided if Zimmerman wasn't carrying a gun, and had allowed the police to do their job.

I'm not saying he did or didn't have the right to carry a weapon as a citizen (IDK the law in
FL), but while he was acting in the capacity of "neighborhood watch"... It was a dangerous line to cross...

Steinhauer · 04-17-2012, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSign

The whole situation is very tricky.

Hopefully some good will come out of this such as legislation regarding the rules and regulations of neighborhood watch groups. As some have addressed, this situation could have been avoided if Zimmerman wasn't carrying a gun, and had allowed the police to do their job.

I'm not saying he did or didn't have the right to carry a weapon as a citizen (IDK the law in
FL), but while he was acting in the capacity of "neighborhood watch"... It was a dangerous line to cross...

While I agree with you that this was a very tricky situation - Reba pointed out previously that he was not acting in the capacity of his role as neighborhodd watch when he made the 911 call.

He was on his way home when he spotted Trayvon "acting suspiciously" and was in his role as private citizen.

No one, at this point, no one publicly knows what prompted Zimmerman to call 911 other than he thought Trayvon was acting suspiciously. That is where the media made race a factor (which was speculation) and the uproar began.

Also, since no one publicly knows - more speculation has been made that Trayvon was not doing anything and was breaking no laws - but no one knows this and is speculation. This is where the media, again, made race a factor and accused Zimmerman of "profiling"

In the actual 911 call, Zimmerman said that Trayvon was "acting like he was on drugs".

I am sure this will come up during the trial.

kokonut · 04-17-2012, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSign

The whole situation is very tricky.

Hopefully some good will come out of this such as legislation regarding the rules and regulations of neighborhood watch groups. As some have addressed, this situation could have been avoided if Zimmerman wasn't carrying a gun, and had allowed the police to do their job.

I'm not saying he did or didn't have the right to carry a weapon as a citizen (IDK the law in
FL), but while he was acting in the capacity of "neighborhood watch"... It was a dangerous line to cross...

For all we know he may have been acting in the capacity as a person who happened to live in that neighborhood and who happened to notice what appeared to be a suspicious person when he wasn't "working" like anybody else who might have seen the same thing. This high tech lynching isn't helping anything.

**Jiro** · 04-17-2012, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

While I agree with you that this was a very tricky situation - Reba pointed out previously that he was not acting in the capacity of his role as neighborhodd watch when he made the 911 call.

He was on his way home when he spotted Trayvon "acting suspiciously" and was in his role as private citizen.

No one, at this point, no one publicly knows what prompted Zimmerman to call 911 other than he thought Trayvon was acting suspiciously. That is where the media made race a factor (which was speculation) and the uproar began.

Also, since no one publicly knows - more speculation has been made that Trayvon was not doing anything and was breaking no laws - but no one knows this and is speculation. This is where the media, again, made race a factor and accused Zimmerman of "profiling"

like police and EMT - their jobs don't end at the end of their shift. That applies for Zimmerman.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

In the actual 911 call, Zimmerman said that Trayvon was "acting like he was on drugs".

I am sure this will come up during the trial.

exactly. so what was Zimmerman thinking when pursuing Trayvon? oh let me guess... he had a gun and he must have thought he can conveniently hide behind Stand Your Ground law.

**Jiro** · 04-17-2012, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSign

Yes Reba, I understand that.

Steinhauer made a blanket statement that Zimmerman was innocent. Not that he was innocent until proven guilty.. That is in the same spirit as someone saying he is guilty, before the trial begins and facts are presented. That was my point.

exactly. let's take a look at this article below.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/16/us...onvention.html

Quote:

ST. LOUIS — Inside the seven-acre showroom at the National Rifle Association’s annual convention here during the weekend, firearm enthusiasts filtered in and out of the sea of booths displaying handguns and the holsters designed to hide them.

Eager to explain the benefits of carrying a concealed weapon, hikers discussed how they feared bandits more than bears on the trail. Aging men rattled off hypothetical situations requiring self-defense; the details varied, but all involved some version of a younger, more muscular aggressor.

Yet with the gun lobby gathering just days after George Zimmerman was arrested in the fatal shooting of Trayvon Martin, an unarmed teenager in Florida, there was a new potency to such contingencies as many gun owners wait for more evidence about the killing to emerge.

“People here are definitely thinking and talking about it,” said Terrence Mayfield, 61, who has a permit to carry a concealed firearm in Florida. “This whole thing rests on who threw the first punch. Either the gun saved Zimmerman’s life or we had a cowboy, someone who thought because he had a gun things could escalate.”

There are still questions about exactly what happened the night Mr. Martin died. The answers may determine whether Mr. Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer who told the police that he had pulled the trigger in self-defense, will be protected by Florida’s version of the Stand Your Ground laws that states across the country have enacted to grant broad rights to people who use deadly force to defend themselves.

A special prosecutor appointed to the case charged Mr. Zimmerman with second-degree murder last week.

Other than a Saturday speech that accused the news media of sensationalized reporting, N.R.A. officials have not commented on Mr. Martin’s death. But interviews with almost two dozen members over the weekend showed that some remain nervous about how the controversy might affect the future of Stand Your Ground statutes across the country, which have come under scrutiny since the shooting on Feb. 26.

“The danger is potentially reversing the laws that it’s taken us decades to get in place and the further erosion of my rights,” said Mr. Mayfield, an Air Force veteran who served in the Persian Gulf war of 1991. He offered a hypothetical confrontation to explain why he carries a gun: “I’m a 61-year-old fat guy with a bad back with a little bit of shrapnel in my leg. There’s no way in hell I’m going to be able to run away from a 20-year-old.”

Many of those interviewed expressed a willingness to give Mr. Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt, accusing others of rushing to judgment before all the facts are revealed. At the same time, they were pleased to see that the shooting was being investigated.

“Zimmerman was a neighborhood watch guy trying to defend his neighbors,” said Marian Johnson, 69, from South Dakota. “I’m sure he didn’t set out to see what happened happen. I just hope they’re fair to both sides.”

Kent Hawkins, 55, who lives in Kentucky and has been a member of the N.R.A. on and off since he was 12, said: “I wasn’t there, so I can’t say. People are jumping to conclusions and shaping it into whatever they want it to be.”

But others have begun to distance themselves from Mr. Zimmerman, offering up the familiar slogan — “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people” — to emphasize that one shooting should not overshadow the fact that millions of law-abiding gun owners in the United States have never had a violent altercation.

“I don’t think you’ll find anyone here who would promote vigilante justice,” said Preston Haglin, 60, from Missouri.

Greg Moats offered another assessment.

“If Zimmerman acted out of line, there are laws in place to deal with that,” said Mr. Moats, 59, from Kansas.

He added that he did not think the case should be a gun issue in the first place. “There’s nothing that the anti-gun groups wouldn’t do,” he said. “There’s no national disaster they wouldn’t exploit. They can manufacture fuel for whatever argument they want.”

Still, Martha Gagliardi, 62, said she worried that any new evidence against Mr. Zimmerman could provide additional arguments to gun control advocates.

A member of the gun lobby for three decades who lives in upstate New York, Ms. Gagliardi said her Second Amendment right to bear arms had become an extremely personal issue, requiring no theorizing about imaginary attackers, ever since she was robbed at gunpoint years ago in the driveway of her home in Queens.

“That’s when I moved,” she said. “That’s when I got my gun license. I never want to feel that helpless again.”

there's a huge difference in tone between people's stance in this thread and the people above.

I see that some people here strongly believe Zimmerman's action is justified and that no question should be asked since he's innocent until proven guilty and people out there like prosecutors and public are just screaming for blood.... whereas the people in the article sound very fair and neutral and they do want trial to determine his innocence.... which is fair for all.

Steinhauer · 04-17-2012, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

like police and EMT - their jobs don't end at the end of their shift. That applies for Zimmerman.

The police and EMT are not private citizens when on duty - a Neighborhood watch captain is a private citizen both on and off "duty".

exactly. so what was Zimmerman thinking when pursuing Trayvon? oh let me guess... he had a gun and he must have thought he can conveniently hide behind Stand Your Ground law.

Do you have any evidence that Zimmerman initiated a physical confrontation with Trayvon?

**Jiro** · 04-17-2012, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Do you have any evidence that Zimmerman initiated a physical confrontation with Trayvon?

Do you have evidence that disputed otherwise?

kokonut · 04-17-2012, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Do you have any evidence that Zimmerman initiated a physical confrontation with Trayvon?

Nobody knows...except what's out of public view if there are any to indicate that GZ initiated physical confrontation. We probably will never know...then again...we'll have to wait and see.

Steinhauer · 04-17-2012, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

Do you have evidence that disputed otherwise?

Zimmerman does not need evidence to dispute his own testimony. The State of Florida does if they wish to convict Zimmerman of 2nd degree murder.

So, since you have pre-determined Zimmerman to be guilty, I assumed you had evidence that he initiated a physical confrontation with Trayvon. It can't be what you **think** happened, that will not be used in court.

Evidence that nobody else has. Evidence that disputes eyewitness accounts of Trayvon repeatedly punching Zimmerman as he lay on his back.

**Jiro** · 04-17-2012, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Zimmerman does not need evidence to dispute his own testimony. The State of Florida does if they wish to convict Zimmerman of 2nd degree murder.

So, since you have pre-determined Zimmerman to be guilty, I assumed you had evidence that he initiated a physical confrontation with Trayvon. It can't be what you **think** happened, that will not be used in court.

Evidence that nobody else has. Evidence that disputes eyewitness accounts of Trayvon repeatedly punching Zimmerman as he lay on his back.

that's fascinating. but your first sentence is erroneous

kokonut · 04-18-2012, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

Zimmerman does not need evidence to dispute his own testimony. The State of Florida does if they wish to convict Zimmerman of 2nd degree murder.

So, since you have pre-determined Zimmerman to be guilty, I assumed you had evidence that he initiated a physical confrontation with Trayvon. It can't be what you **think** happened, that will not be used in court.

Evidence that nobody else has. Evidence that disputes eyewitness accounts of Trayvon repeatedly punching Zimmerman as he lay on his back.

Hmmm....

Steinhauer · 04-18-2012, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

that's fascinating. but your first sentence is erroneous

It was in reply to your erroneous question - if "I" had evidence disputing the claim that GZ initiated a physical confrontation with Trayvon.

"I" don't need the evidence and the court doesn't need that evidence (which is readily available and has been made public). They need evidence (but actually, proof) that GZ initiated the physical confrontation between himself and Trayvon in order to get a conviction.

According to the police report, GZ stated Trayvon had circled around the clubhouse and approached him as he was walking back to his car.

The time of the 911 calls, the time Trayvon called his gf, the location of the incident all indicate that GZ was telling the truth. The medical reports, injuries sustained to the back of his head and his broken nose as well as grass stains the officers witnessed on the back of his jacket all are indicators as well. The eyewitness that reported seeing Trayvon on top of GZ gives Zimmerman's account credibility.

And ... was the reason the initial prosecutor let him go.

**TXgolfer** · 04-18-2012, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

like police and EMT - their jobs don't end at the end of their shift. That applies for Zimmerman.

exactly. so what was Zimmerman thinking when pursuing Trayvon? oh let me guess... he had a gun and he must have thought he can conveniently hide behind Stand Your Ground law.

Yeah, I am sure "stand your ground" entered his mind during the ordeal.

**Jiro** · 04-18-2012, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

It was in reply to your erroneous question - if "I" had evidence disputing the claim that GZ initiated a physical confrontation with Trayvon.

"I" don't need the evidence and the court doesn't need that evidence (which is readily available and has been made public). They need evidence (but actually, proof) that GZ initiated the physical confrontation between himself and Trayvon in order to get a conviction.

According to the police report, GZ stated Trayvon had circled around the clubhouse and approached him as he was walking back to his car.

The time of the 911 calls, the time Trayvon called his gf, the location of the incident all indicate that GZ was telling the truth. The medical reports, injuries sustained to the back of his head and his broken nose as well as grass stains the officers witnessed on the back of his jacket all are indicators as well. The eyewitness that reported seeing Trayvon on top of GZ gives Zimmerman's account credibility.

in other word.... case closed? no question asked?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steinhauer

And ... was the reason the initial prosecutor let him go.

everybody makes mistake. I find it curious that you haven't made a peep in Misguided Justice of "Stand Your Ground" thread

but I'll give you a benefit of reasonable doubt that you perhaps didn't notice it

**TXgolfer** · 04-18-2012, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

exactly. let's take a look at this article below.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/16/us...onvention.html

there's a huge difference in tone between people's stance in this thread and the people above.

I see that some people here strongly believe Zimmerman's action is justified and that no question should be asked since he's innocent until proven guilty and people out there like prosecutors and public are just screaming for blood.... whereas the people in the article sound very fair and neutral and they do want trial to determine his innocence.... which is fair for all.

Who here has said there should be no questions asked? I think all of us are ok with a trial....I know I am.

kokonut · 04-18-2012, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Yeah, I am sure "stand your ground" entered his mind during the ordeal.

Yeah...he's plotting, scheming every minute of it while making mental notes about SYG.

**Jiro** · 04-18-2012, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Who here has said there should be no questions asked? I think all of us are ok with a trial....I know I am.

Steinhauer.

**Jiro** · 04-18-2012, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

Yeah...he's plotting, scheming every minute of it while making mental notes about SYG.

yea I'm sure SYG entered Trayvon's mind too.

**Jiro** · 04-18-2012, 12:32 AM

Affidavit: No racial slur in Zimmerman police call - Orlando Sentinel

Quote:

In an affidavit laying out the second-degree-murder charge against George Zimmerman, Special Prosecutor Angela Corey became the latest to weigh in on a controversial segment of his call to police that some say contains a racial slur.

According to Corey's investigators, Zimmerman said "these [expletive] punks" under his breath during the call, in which he reported Trayvon Martin as suspicious on Feb. 26.

Minutes later, he shot the teenager dead during an apparent confrontation.

The third word, "punks," has been the subject of scrutiny. Some claim it is instead a racial epithet, which the Orlando Sentinel is not publishing.

Zimmerman's former attorneys, Craig Sonner and Hal Uhrig, previously told CNN the word was "punks," as did Tom Owen, chair emeritus of the American Board of Recorded Evidence.

However, other experts have said that the second word was "cold," or the racial slur. The audio segment drew added attention after the U.S. Department of Justice launched a civil-rights probe into the case.

good! now I'm glad we can move on without this distraction.

**TXgolfer** · 04-18-2012, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kokonut

Yeah...he's plotting, scheming every minute of it while making mental notes about SYG.

Probably for weeks. Just sitting around on the hunt.... "who can I shoot and claim I was standing my ground".

kokonut · 04-18-2012, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXgolfer

Probably for weeks. Just sitting around on the hunt.... "who can I shoot and claim I was standing my ground".

Yeah...he had it all planned out...so meticulous he was.

Just noting the absurdity of it all.

**Jiro** · 04-18-2012, 12:37 AM

Orlando Letters to the Editor: Armed crime watch, taxes and health law - Orlando Sentinel

Quote:

Armed crime watch

As a homeowner in downtown Orlando, I am uncomfortable with any Neighborhood Watch volunteer who wants to carry a firearm. The program is designed to protect our neighborhoods by alerting the police of any suspicious criminal activity. The volunteer should not take any action to pursue the suspect because volunteers are not trained and do not have the authority to do this.

A citizen who carries a firearm should not be a comfort to anyone, and I do not want this type of citizen in my community. The tragic Trayvon Martin shooting demonstrates how nobody benefits from an armed-citizen watch, including the person who thinks it's necessary to carry a firearm. I bet George Zimmerman now wishes he never owned a gun; I certainly do.

Don Reale Orlando

I should correct her that Zimmerman wasn't on Neighborhood Watch duty. He was on the way home from errands and like every Florida citizen, he's legally allowed to carry one. But it's a no-no to carry one if you're on Neighborhood Watch duty and he should have been mindful of it when he "switched" to Neighborhood Watch mode.

**Jiro** · 04-18-2012, 12:39 AM

Trayvon Martin George Zimmerman: Judge Jessica Recksiedler assigned Zimmerman case - Orlando Sentinel

Quote:

At 8:45 a.m. Thursday, Circuit Judge Jessica Recksiedler learned that she had been assigned the George Zimmerman-Trayvon Martin case, one of the nation's most racially divisive murder cases.

Recksiedler, 39, of Sanford, has been a judge a little more than a year. Criminal law is not her specialty. Trial work is.

A Stetson University College of Law graduate, she has been a lawyer for 15 years.

She is a board-certified civil-trial specialist, and during her 2010 campaign, touted her experience in commercial, construction, insurance, personal injury, probate and estate law.

Her election was a surprise. She defeated a former judge, Oscar Hotusing of Brevard County.

She is married to a personal-injury attorney and is the mother of two.

*wolf whistle*

comment in that article -

Quote:

Common sense is not so common at 7:20 AM April 13, 2012

"has been a judge a little more than a year. Criminal law is not her specialty. Trial work is."

Oh dear. We really need a training program where a potential circuit court judge should hear a number of misdemeanor cases first, then they can "graduate" to longer, more complicated cases. That's how it works in the State Attorney and Public Defenders offices.

They don't just toss people to the lions.

she must be relieved to be removed from the trial.

**Jiro** · 04-18-2012, 12:43 AM

Scott Maxwell: So far, Angela Corey looks courageous and savvy in Trayvon Martin case - Orlando Sentinel

Quote:

Only time will tell whether Special Prosecutor Angela Corey got it right in charging George Zimmerman with second-degree murder.

As I've said before, there's no sense trying to second-guess that call without all the facts.

But the Republican state attorney from Jacksonville has already done a few things that show she's tougher and savvier than the average bear … especially the bears in these parts.

First of all, Corey stepped up to the plate and decided to bring charges herself — instead of using a grand jury. That took guts.

For those who don't know much about these secretive panels — and I include much of the media in that group — grand juries are often used as a cop-out.

They allow prosecutors to present unbalanced evidence and uncorroborated testimony. Most troubling, they let prosecutors to do all this without full accountability, since the proceedings are secret.

There's a reason for the expression that most grand juries "would indict a ham sandwich if the prosecutors so requested."

Corey showed courage and accountability by making the charge herself.

The other thing Corey has demonstrated is an ability to tamp down emotions — something sorely needed in the controversy that followed Trayvon Martin's death.

As evidence, look at the way Corey and the Sanford Police Department handled protesters who blocked the front door to the department earlier this week.

The hoodie-cloaked protesters were ready to be arrested. And the cops had every right to do so.

But instead of slapping cuffs on the students gathered at their front door, the cops simply used the back door.

Afterward, Corey and the cops spoke with the protesters … and they moved.

Situation solved.

No arrests — which cost taxpayers money. No giving protesters the extra publicity they may have sought. And no further inflaming an already touchy situation.

Instead of making national news, the incident didn't make it higher than paragraph No. 24 in a local story in the Sentinel.

Other politicians around Central Florida — particularly those at Orlando City Hall — should take notes.

Obviously the jury is still out on how Corey handles this case in the long run. But so far, Gov. Rick Scott seems to have recruited a courageous prosecutor more eager in pursuing justice than headlines.

**Reba** · 04-18-2012, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

that's fascinating. but your first sentence is erroneous

Steinhauer is correct. The burden of proof is on the state. It's always that way in American courtrooms.

**TXgolfer** · 04-18-2012, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Steinhauer is correct. The burden of proof is on the state. It's always that way in American courtrooms.

Actually the burden of proof does switch when an affirmative defense is used. In this case Zimmerman will probably plea self defense which is an affirmative defense. His burden of proof is lower than reasonable doubt though and the wounds would probably be enough to switch the burden back to the prosecution.

kokonut · 04-18-2012, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Steinhauer is correct. The burden of proof is on the state. It's always that way in American courtrooms.

Yay!

But, of course.

**Jiro** · 04-18-2012, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Steinhauer is correct. The burden of proof is on the state. It's always that way in American courtrooms.

Quote:

Zimmerman does not need evidence to dispute his own testimony.

why would Zimmerman be disputing his own testimony? Steinhauer must have meant "defend".

airportcop · 04-18-2012, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiro

Orlando Letters to the Editor: Armed crime watch, taxes and health law - Orlando Sentinel

I should correct her that Zimmerman wasn't on Neighborhood Watch duty. He was on the way home from errands and like every Florida citizen, he's legally allowed to carry one. But it's a no-no to carry one if you're on Neighborhood Watch duty and he should have been mindful of it when he "switched" to Neighborhood Watch mode.

So, when I am coming home from work or from being out shopping or having dinner and I see a person that appears to be up to no good in my neighborhood does that mean that I am now in "Neighborhood Watch Mode"? I have been there and done that more than once before. I always carry a gun. I have called the cops and have waited and watched prior to their arrival. If I was approached by the suspicious person while I was waiting and they became aggressive then I would use deadly force to defend myself if necessary. I run these scenarios through my mind all the time. Does that make me a vigilante or does it mean that I am profiling? Not hardly! It means that I am mentally preparing for a what if situation.

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04-17-2012, 10:56 PM	#542 (permalink)
CSign Registered User Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Best Coast, USA Posts: 3,194	The whole situation is very tricky. Hopefully some good will come out of this such as legislation regarding the rules and regulations of neighborhood watch groups. As some have addressed, this situation could have been avoided if Zimmerman wasn't carrying a gun, and had allowed the police to do their job. I'm not saying he did or didn't have the right to carry a weapon as a citizen (IDK the law in FL), but while he was acting in the capacity of "neighborhood watch"... It was a dangerous line to cross...