ASL, SEE Sign, & Signed English

[Mookie]

Eyeth

 

[loml]

Thank you Eyeth

If I remember correctly, you advocate the Cued Speech approach. I wonder if you have observed SEE usage, either personally or in a classroom setting? If you have, you'll know why people refer SEE and its variants to be artifical sign language systems. It really is that stilted and actually 'interrupts' the natural flow of sign language.

Indeed I have observed SEE in the classroom and in a personal setting. I am aware that SEE and the likes thereof, are often deemed artificial language. Having said that, I have yet to meet any professional users stating SEE/SEEII is a language. Rather, they view it as a visual representation of spoken English. "sign what you say & one English equivalent" With regards to the "natural flow of sign language", personally, I think that is debatable, skill level of the signer being the largest variable for me.

And yes, I have been exposed to teachers using the SEE method, and as well as ASL. By far, me and my peers seem to 'understand' ASL teachers better and more naturally, as opposed to SEE teachers. I find it more difficult to follow instruction done under a SEE method and get 'fatigued'. Undoubtedly, some of my peers, instead of becoming 'fatigued', just simply gloss over the subject matter and not really comprehending anything substantative.

I agree SEE/SEEII is a fatiguing method, both receptively and in delivery. In fact one of my personal reasons for advocating CS. Your "understanding" of the ASL teacher better and more naturally is an interesting comment to me. I am curious as to your language learning process. IE: post-lingual/pre-lingual English/ASL Would you be comfortable sharing this with me?

In addition to fatigue, it does appear that excessive prompting, in overcoming the 'artificialness' of the communications method, is more prevalent in SEE than ASL. (Personally, I've never really have observed excessive 'prompting'. Mostly, I see 'glassy-eyed' students, and find it difficult in determining if they really understood the subject matter being discussed.

The coined phrase "excessive prompting", and "artificialness" of the communication method, quite frankly what is that suppose to mean?

However, the vast majority of Deaf instruction I've received, and have observed, was the middle of the road variety; Using PSE in conjunction with voicing. I'm not really a fan of that method either, but this is a common communications method as used in the DHH classrooms, especially at Deaf institutions and Gallaudet.

In addition to your comments, it is troubling to know that the majority of Deaf instruction is the "quality" of the PSE method.

Granted, I'm drawing from anecdotal experience. As I've pointed out in an earlier link, there are studies done on SEE and ASL usage in the classroom, and it pretty much confirms my suspicions and observations about SEE usage in a formal educational setting.

That all said, I would use SEE only in limited quantities; For example, on a one-on-one basis, tutoring a DHH student in English, I would use SEE to read a sentence or two, just to get the 'nuances' of English in a visual form.

Many of the parents of deaf children in my area, are insisting on SEE/SEEII in the classroom. Unfortunately there are no "standards' for SEE/SEEII that have to be met in order for people to be the interpreter/transliterator. The dhh child pays an enormous price for other peoples egos.

 

[rockdrummer]

I wouldn't go that far in endorsing SEE in promoting literacy among young DHH students. Check an earlier AD reply of mine;

ASL v. ESE Study Reply

This all gets more confusing as time goes on. I know for a fact and have witnessed that some deaf folks are not proficient in proper English which I will term for the sake of argument as "literacy” The ability to read and write proper English. I understand why this happens based on my understanding of ASL and how it conceptually differs from the English language. So the question I would pose to those that are deaf and literate is - what is the best method to learn to read and write proper English? Or not necessarily what is best but what worked for you?

 

[Cousin Vinny]

Your "understanding" of the ASL teacher better and more naturally is an interesting comment to me. I am curious as to your language learning process. IE: post-lingual/pre-lingual English/ASL Would you be comfortable sharing this with me?

I went to a Deaf institution (FSD) and am pre-lingually deafened. Prior to enrolling in school, my mother would sit down with me every night and go over vocabulary exercises. I think that was the single biggest boost for me in 'acquiring' English as my native language.

The coined phrase "excessive prompting", and "artificialness" of the communication method, quite frankly what is that suppose to mean?

Forgive me for going overly pedantic here, and allow me to illustrate an example:

Let's say the teacher is reciting from a History text, say, about one particular event during the American Revolution. It could be as long as two to three paragraphs. The teacher uses SEE and faithfully transliterates the history text for DHH students to comprehend.

Assuming it is a 'perfect' class of DHH students, where they actually engage in classroom discourse, and are otherwise highly intelligent. By the time the teacher finishes the 1st or 2nd sentence, fatigue settles in, and students begin to miss information. As a result, they 'prompt' the teacher for clarification. By the time the teacher is onto the 2nd paragraph, the students are 'prompting' him to 'reclarify' the 1st paragraph (preferably in ASL!), and so on.

However, if ASL is used in the same classroom with the same history text, less prompting and more discussions take place. By the time the teacher is done translating the 1st paragraph, a student or two may chime in with an opinion, comment, etc. And the discourse between teacher and student is enhanced. Prompting may still happen, but at a much lower level than what SEE would exact from an similiar audience using a similiar story.

However, in actual practice, I rarely see the 'prompting' phenomenon occur. More likely, the student may privately ask the teacher for clarification during a break. Most students simply move onto the next school task.

In a nutshell, students viewing a story done in SEE have to fight through the artificalness & English structure, in order to get at the story. Some may still not 'get it', get frustrated, or just give up on the particular story. In ASL, most students just enjoy the story as told, and are stimulated accordingly.

I'm in the camp where DHH students just get the vital information they need on critical areas such as History, Math, Sciences, etc. and get all the English they need in a regular English class and intensive English tutoring, and that's where SEE should be used, if at all.

 

[Cousin Vinny]

So the question I would pose to those that are deaf and literate is - what is the best method to learn to read and write proper English? Or not necessarily what is best but what worked for you?

IMHO, the best way in achieving a high degree in English literacy is to read more. Yes, as funny as it sounds, in order to have a high degree in English ability, you need to be an excellent reader.

This should happen during elementary instruction. The DHH teacher should emphasize reading over auditory/verbal training, cursive writing, singing songs, and whatnot. Reading promotes vocabulary building, how to spot new words and derive definitions, to assimilate idioms and much more. High expectations and parential participation are essential ingredients from which a highly literate DHH person can spring forth.

Funny thing is, whenever I meet old friends from my FSD days, they always invariably remark how much time I've spent in the library, and now wished they did the same. And I would invariably wish I've spent more time participating in sports & activities, being more 'social', etc.! And we would laugh about it and move on.

 

[loml]

I went to a Deaf institution (FSD) and am pre-lingually deafened. Prior to enrolling in school, my mother would sit down with me every night and go over vocabulary exercises. I think that was the single biggest boost for me in 'acquiring' English as my native language.

Eyeth,
Vocabulary excersises every night would definately benefit. You are pre-lingually deafened. What was the mode of communication that your family choose to use your in the home? What was the approach that your mother used for the vocabulary exercises?

Forgive me for going overly pedantic here, and allow me to illustrate an example:

Let's say the teacher is reciting from a History text, say, about one particular event during the American Revolution. It could be as long as two to three paragraphs. The teacher uses SEE and faithfully transliterates the history text for DHH students to comprehend.

Assuming it is a 'perfect' class of DHH students, where they actually engage in classroom discourse, and are otherwise highly intelligent. By the time the teacher finishes the 1st or 2nd sentence, fatigue settles in, and students begin to miss information. As a result, they 'prompt' the teacher for clarification. By the time the teacher is onto the 2nd paragraph, the students are 'prompting' him to 'reclarify' the 1st paragraph (preferably in ASL!), and so on.

However, if ASL is used in the same classroom with the same history text, less prompting and more discussions take place. By the time the teacher is done translating the 1st paragraph, a student or two may chime in with an opinion, comment, etc. And the discourse between teacher and student is enhanced. Prompting may still happen, but at a much lower level than what SEE would exact from an similiar audience using a similiar story.

However, in actual practice, I rarely see the 'prompting' phenomenon occur. More likely, the student may privately ask the teacher for clarification during a break. Most students simply move onto the next school task.

In a nutshell, students viewing a story done in SEE have to fight through the artificalness & English structure, in order to get at the story. Some may still not 'get it', get frustrated, or just give up on the particular story. In ASL, most students just enjoy the story as told, and are stimulated accordingly.

My question here Eyeth, is what method were these people first taught with, in the home and in the school setting. Some children are not seeing ASL as they are mainstreamed, and do not have any involvement with ASL users. As far as dicourse with the teacher, imho, that should happen no matter what the communication method is. You mention the "arificialness" of SEE, I believe that this is a "coined phrase", by ASL users who are unhappy that ASL has been modified. I do not believe that a child who uses SEE/SEEII at home and in the educational setting would really care if it "artificial".

I'm in the camp where DHH students just get the vital information they need on critical areas such as History, Math, Sciences, etc. and get all the English they need in a regular English class and intensive English tutoring, and that's where SEE should be used, if at all.

I am a firm believer in providing the language of instruction, whether it be English, Hebrew or Spanish. ASL does not do this nor does SEE. In Canada there are two official languages. Yes, there is "Canadian ASL and French LSQ". I personally have no experience with LSQ and cannot offer an opinion.
I do know that in Quebec there are deaf childre who cue French, who now must learn English, and the method of instruction is cueing. Cueing historically has lead to literacy and continues to do so today. To suggest a deaf child and their family "struggle" to communicate and learn language together, to me just doesnt make sense. jmho

 

[deafdyke]

vocab exercises help, but it's totally not the ONLY answer! Syntax and grammar are the real stumbling blocks.

 

[Cousin Vinny]

You are pre-lingually deafened. What was the mode of communication that your family choose to use your in the home? What was the approach that your mother used for the vocabulary exercises?

I would imagine, the standard auditory/verbal therapy regimen was used. My family did not know sign language.

My question here Eyeth, is what method were these people first taught with, in the home and in the school setting. Some children are not seeing ASL as they are mainstreamed, and do not have any involvement with ASL users.

I see what you mean. Admittedly, my perceptions of SEE and its efficacy may have well been 'colored' by my ASL upbringing. Still, I find it hard to imagine how a long-time SEE user would be able to understand SEE instruction w/o any problems. I guess it's possible and SEE instruction would be 'natural' to SEE users. I would imagine, perhaps, that ASL instruction would invite more prompting and fatigue among SEE users as well!

That all said, I'm going to stick to my guns and prefer ASL on the side of the ASL v. SEE debate!

You mention the "arificialness" of SEE, I believe that this is a "coined phrase", by ASL users who are unhappy that ASL has been modified.

Well, ASL is a language of its own right, and by trying to bend its grammatical rules and structure to another spoken language makes the resulting combination 'artificial'. Moreover, SEE is purely a creation of the school system and its professionals, made in response to a longstanding problem of English literacy among the DHH student population, lending credence to its 'artificialness'. Contrast that with ASL, a 'living' language, continually evolving, experiencing constant exposure to a wide variety of sources, and been in development since the early 1800's.

While I am not enamored by the creation of SEE and its 'polluting' of the ASL language in the name of English proficiency, I can live with it. I can converse with SEE users, and understand SEE signers with a minimum of difficulty. Now that I think of it, I surely hope the reverse is true, that long-time SEE users can understand me!

Cueing historically has lead to literacy and continues to do so today. To suggest a deaf child and their family "struggle" to communicate and learn language together, to me just doesnt make sense. jmho

I agree with you that communications between the family and the DHH child shouldn't be a 'struggle'. As for cueing, I'm going to shut my trap, as I dont' know well enough about it and its effectiveness.

 

[Reba]

vocab exercises help, but it's totally not the ONLY answer! Syntax and grammar are the real stumbling blocks.

True.

 

[Reba]

... what method were these people first taught with, in the home and in the school setting. Some children are not seeing ASL as they are mainstreamed, and do not have any involvement with ASL users. ...

I'm curious about that, also.

My experience with "mainstream" education has been limited to one state, so I don't know how it is handled in other areas. What I have seen has disturbed me.

Except for pre-school "intervention" programs, deaf children in the public schools don't seem to get any further sign language training, whether it be ASL or SEE, nor do they get training in the correct way to use interpreters. When I was on a long-term sub assignment for a middle school terp, the other staff terp and I were discussing the daily and weekly class schedules. I asked the terp when did the students get their language training. I was informed that there was no such thing as formal classes for instruction in ASL grammar, sign vocabulary building, Deaf history and culture, or how to use assistive technology and interpreters. There were no opportunities to meet, much less associate with, Deaf adults. No "Deaf" related field trips, mentoring programs, clubs, etc. The few deaf classmates that they had were the only deaf people they knew.

In my work at the college, each time I meet a new Deaf student, one of the first questions is, "where are the Deaf people?" They want to know how to meet other Deaf young people. It's really sad that I know many more local Deaf people than any of them know. Also sad, most of the Deaf people I know who have any sort of community are older people.

I was taught that if I wanted to know a sign for something, I should ask the Deaf consumer for that sign. Sadly, many of the students entering college have very limited sign vocabularies. They are depending more on spelling but when I ask, "do you understand the meaning of that spelled word," I usually get a negative response.

It shocks me that they don't know the signs for common words and concepts. I'm not talking about technical or professional jargon. I talking about everyday terms.

Is it just my state?

 

[Cousin Vinny]

My experience with "mainstream" education has been limited to one state, so I don't know how it is handled in other areas. What I have seen has disturbed me.

Thank you for sharing your anecdotal experiences from the 'other side of the fence', as an interpreter in a mainstreaming setting. I attended a Deaf institution for the vast majority of my school life, so my exposure to mainstreamed DHH programs has been very little. Your experiences have been quite illuminating, and depressing at the same time.

There were no opportunities to meet, much less associate with, Deaf adults.

There is a local DHH mainstream program. A few years ago, the H.S. hired a Deaf teacher, a Gally grad, to teach ASL to regular students as a foreign language. The DHH program, in recent memory, has never hired a Deaf person to teach DHH students, so this was an unusual move. (It didn't hurt that the ASL teacher was also an alumni of the high school in question.)

By the first week, the DHH students were flocking to the Deaf ASL teacher, and most of the regular students, sadly, couldn't be all that more interested in learning ASL. The interpreters at the mainstream program saw their DHH students' interest being heightened because they couldn't believe how 'ASL' the teacher was, and wanted to interact with him! The interpreters quote was 'The students' eyes opened wide and their mouths agape!'

The ASL teacher only lasted one year. A geniune shame, as he was truly a boon to the DHH population at the mainstreamed program there.

Sadly, many of the students entering college have very limited sign vocabularies. They are depending more on spelling but when I ask, "do you understand the meaning of that spelled word," I usually get a negative response.

One possible explanation would be that they were exposed to substandard sign language interpreters in their mainstream classes. Local public schools are notorious for hiring sign language interpreters straight from their ITP's! IMO, the very best and highly qualified ASL interpreters should be placed in elementary school settings.

Then, depending on local manpower and resources, the quality of such interpreting can be 'loosened' in later grades, as the student will have the mental acumen and tools needed to compensate for any variations or deficiencies in the interpreting.

 

[Reba]

... Your experiences have been quite illuminating, and depressing at the same time.

That's how I felt, too.

...The ASL teacher only lasted one year. A geniune shame...

Right. We need more teachers like that.

One possible explanation would be that they were exposed to substandard sign language interpreters in their mainstream classes. Local public schools are notorious for hiring sign language interpreters straight from their ITP's!

I suspect you are right about that. Sadly, many of the top-notch terps get frustrated trying to work within "the system", and don't stick around more than a couple years.

I do know a few good ones, and they also "moonlight" with community interpreting, which keeps them in touch with the adult Deaf community, and gives them variety in their assignments. It's the ones who believe that graduating from an ITP and working the school year is plenty enough that I worry about.

I notice that too many of the elementary school terps are treated more like "teacher aides", and begin to take on that mindset for themselves. Their job description includes bus driving, changing diapers, disciplining children, running errands, etc. They rarely attend interpreting or sign language professional workshops or in-house training. Sigh....

 

[loml]

I notice that too many of the elementary school terps are treated more like "teacher aides", and begin to take on that mindset for themselves. Their job description includes bus driving, changing diapers, disciplining children, running errands, etc. They rarely attend interpreting or sign language professional workshops or in-house training. Sigh....

Reba,

Unfortunately the school system has many flaws, imo. In my area, the jobs are for ASL/SEEII interpreters/traslitorators. Currently there is no certification process in place for the SEEII people. There are people working to this end, but as with anything in the education system it is slow going. There is also the issue of dishonesty/ignorance (my choice of words) amongest the applicants. People who claim to have mastered skills that they cannot do in order to retain their seniority and job placement.There needs to be a testing of skills incorporated in the application process. Parents are often exhausted with these battles and there is a certain amount of fear for their childs education. The ole "don't want to ruffle the
wrong feathers" syndrome.

I sincerely hope that one day all these different camps can come to an agreement, something they can all live with. Deaf children have every right to equal education.

 

[sculleywr]

Discrimination against ASL

I was wondering. I just started learning ASL at college to prepare for a future in Deaf Ministries and court interpreting. I had a previous background in Sign Language from high school. The problem is, I was told that it was ASL, when it was actually SEE. I went through my first year of college majoring in law, then changing to Interpretation. I started going to deaf events when I could, and learning the language through immersion. Well, I came home to Jacksonville, and I met up with the teacher I had for Sign Language. She seemed at first pleasantly surprised that I had chosen that major. However, when I felt confident enough to converse with her in sign, the first thing I got was a malicious-sounding (I couldn't think of another word to put there) "You use ASL." Well, we parted for a few days, and my parents, who also learned it, are convinced that I am not learning true ASL, them having learned SEE. I did a litte research, including looking at some of the topics on this site (which is how I found the site) and going to the sources used. Well, my brother was graduating from homeschool at the FPEA convention, and my teacher was bound to be there. I gathered my research and took it with me to have a calm, clear discussion of it. This included some stuff from NCI. Well, she got hot under the collar only five minutes into my discussion. She started getting angry with me and telling me that her nickname for ASL was American "slop" Language. She basically denied the existence of deaf culture or that deaf people were different than hearing people. Is it just me, or are there others here that have experienced something similar for the language you choose to use?


PS: She didn't even get enough of a sample of my signing to be able to tell the difference between ASL and CASE, which is what I am using until I learn the syntax properly.

PS2: If this is off topic, could someone direct me to a thread where it would be on topic?

 

[ismi]

I am a firm believer in providing the language of instruction, whether it be English, Hebrew or Spanish. ASL does not do this nor does SEE.

Can you explain what you mean by this? Do you mean that students should study the language in which they are being taught other subjects, or something else?

In response to other posters: as far as SEE being artificial ... that's true. But then, there are many creoles that have started in similar ways that have become quite popular, even to the point of becoming the native language of a statistically significant population.

 

[loml]

Quote:
Originally Posted by loml
I am a firm believer in providing the language of instruction, whether it be English, Hebrew or Spanish. ASL does not do this nor does SEE.

Can you explain what you mean by this? Do you mean that students should study the language in which they are being taught other subjects, or something else?

ismi,

What I mean by this is, if the class being taught in Spanish then the language that is conveyed to the deaf child should be Spanish. Does that help?

 

[ismi]

ismi,

What I mean by this is, if the class being taught in Spanish then the language that is conveyed to the deaf child should be Spanish. Does that help?

That does, yeah. Thanks.

 

[deafdyke]

Personally I think that by law, the majority of dhh kids should be put into split placements, post EI. I see too many kids falling through the cracks.....and I mean a lot of times, academic sucess is often dependant on social sucess.
Reba, maybe a good idea might be to hook your client's families up with the American Society for Deaf Children or the Schools for the Deaf or let them know about other dhh spefici educational options.

 

[Reba]

...Reba, maybe a good idea might be to hook your client's families up with the American Society for Deaf Children or the Schools for the Deaf or let them know about other dhh spefici educational options.

As an interpreter, I wasn't allowed to contact any of the students' families. That's outside the interpreter's "boundaries".

 

[LuciaDisturbed]

I notice that too many of the elementary school terps are treated more like "teacher aides", and begin to take on that mindset for themselves. Their job description includes bus driving, changing diapers, disciplining children, running errands, etc. They rarely attend interpreting or sign language professional workshops or in-house training. Sigh....

I know what you mean. It also occurs in junior high as well.

One example: When I was in the 7th grade, we had a home economics class (this was a public school with DHH program). In this case, all of the students in my home ecomonics class were all deaf/hoh. The teacher that was supposed to teach our class was out due to some major surgery and wouldn't be back for the entire semester. Instead of getting a different home economics teacher to teach the class (there were plenty), the interpeters (2 of them) took it upon themselves to actually teach the class. That is not their place.