The Origins of Homosexuality

[Buffalo]

Incorrect. Matthew 2:1-12. To worship the birth of Christ is to celebrate.

If the Bible command us to celebrate his birthday, it would have given us a date.

 

[kokonut]

What historical evidence? The writings of the gospels were done more than a hundred years after the supposed passing of Jesus Christ with the exception of Paul's writings which was done around 40 years after the passing.

Other than that, there's no evidence, at least not physical. There's no historical documents that were created during Jesus Christ's lifetime.

There is a preponderance of historical evidences pointing to the fact that Jesus Christ was an actual historical figure of the time. Otherwise I suppose Julius Caesar and Alexander the Great, and many others historical figures of the same era and time do not exist at all. Yet there some ancient secular historians who have recorded events from Jesus' life acknowledged His existence. For example, look up Cornelius Tacitus, the Governor of Asia (now Turkey) who was a Roman historian wrote in his Annals after AD 64 (a document that survived for over 2000 years) talked about Jesus Christ (see Annals of Imperial Rome, XV 44). Or Josephus who was a Jew and an important historian of the time completed The Antiquities about A.D. 93, another very, very old document, who explicitly pointed out Jesus Christ. Oh wait, can't use historical documents. Silly me!

Complete works of Josephus. Antiquities of the Jews; The wars of the Jews against Apion, etc., .. : Josephus, Flavius : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

http://www.calbaptist.edu/jcate/cst100/PDF Docs/5 - Josephus on Jesus.pdf

Prove to me that Caesar existed. Prove to me that Alexander the Great existed. Prove to me that Pliny the Younger existed. Or that Caius Suetonius, who was the official historian of Rome, existed. By your logic, discounting historical documents regarding historical figures cannot be used, therefore, Caesar and many others historical figures of antiquities simply do not exist. :roll:

 

[kokonut]

If the Bible command us to celebrate his birthday, it would have given us a date.

Not that easy. It's not like how birth records are kept today. A totally different world 2000 years ago when it comes to documenting people, much less on the exact date of their births.

 

[rolling7]

What historical evidence? The writings of the gospels were done more than a hundred years after the supposed passing of Jesus Christ with the exception of Paul's writings which was done around 40 years after the passing.

Other than that, there's no evidence, at least not physical. There's no historical documents that were created during Jesus Christ's lifetime.

Are you saying Mark, Luke, John and Mathew wrote theirs a hundred years AFTER Jesus death? You have totally lost your marbles.

 

[Banjo]

Alexander the Great? There were coins with a portrait of himself on them, they were made during his reign. He was a conquerer, there are many, many documents recording the actions and the events during his lifetime, not after he had passed on. There are also treaties signed by him as well.

We also all know what Caesar looked like. There are statues of him. There's also coins that were created during his reign as well. In fact, there are writings done by Caesar himself. Accounts of what he had witnessed during his lifetime.

It's nearly impossible to prove that either Alexander or Caesar did not exist, but there is no way to prove that Jesus Christ did in fact exist.

Jesus? Not so much, except for the hearsay accounts.

 

[Banjo]

Are you saying Mark, Luke, John and Mathew wrote theirs a hundred years AFTER Jesus death? You have totally lost your marbles.

Mark was not an eyewitness, didn't you know that? He was a discipline of Peter's. Neither was Luke. You know what's interesting about Luke? The fact that he was a companion to Paul who never witnessed anything too. Both Mark and Luke were responsible for recalling the stories that they were told by Matthew and the others.

 

[kokonut]

Alexander the Great? There were coins with a portrait of himself on them, they were made during his reign. He was a conquerer, there are many, many documents recording the actions and the events during his lifetime, not after he had passed on. There are also treaties signed by him as well.

We also all know what Caesar looked like. There are statues of him. There's also coins that were created during his reign as well. In fact, there are writings done by Caesar himself. Accounts of what he had witnessed during his lifetime.

It's nearly impossible to prove that either Alexander or Caesar did not exist, but there is no way to prove that Jesus Christ did in fact exist.

Jesus? Not so much, except for the hearsay accounts.

AHEM!!

Pontius Pilate
Cornelius Tacitus
Caius Suetonius
Pliny the Younger.
Lucian of Samosata
Letter from Mara Bar-Serapion
Julius Africanus, Thallus, and Phlegon

I guess those people never existed according to your logic. While you're at it, look up Lucian of Samosata, who wrote "The Passing Peregrinus," about the history of a well known Greek traveller named Proteus, a book that confirmed numerous historical facts mentioned in the Gospels, and about Jesus Christ.

There are many, many famous historical figures of antiquities that were simply documented in various details, and based your logic they cannot exist because using historical documents is verbotten.

 

[KarissaMann05]

I have no doubt that Jesus was a spiritual master, but there were many throughout history. Buddha, Mohammad, Krishna and many others come to mind. I have learned that they all represent the same ideal, so it doesn't matter whom you focus on, as long as you are comfortable with it. I read the Bhagavad Gita along with the Bible, and really, I do not see what the big deal is over physical proof of their existence. I think I saw part of nirvana when I had my near death experience, and that is a great comfort to me.

Yeah, I enjoy reading various stories about them, but I don't think Jesus is a mere mythical figure. Only if the soldiers don't kill those witnesses, then I can't imagine how it could be a bit of different.

 

[Banjo]

AHEM!!

Pontius Pilate
Cornelius Tacitus
Caius Suetonius
Pliny the Younger.
Lucian of Samosata
Letter from Mara Bar-Serapion
Julius Africanus, Thallus, and Phlegon

I guess those people never existed according to your logic. While you're at it, look up Lucian of Samosata, who wrote "The Passing Peregrinus," about the history of a well known Greek traveller named Proteus, a book that confirmed numerous historical facts mentioned in the Gospels, and about Jesus Christ.

There are many, many famous historical figures of antiquities that were simply documented in various details, and based your logic they cannot exist because using historical documents is verbotten.

I merely said that the historical records that were created after the passing of someone cannot be used to prove one's existence. I never said that Jesus Christ doesn't exist, but that it cannot be proven.

I just don't consider "historical records" that were created long after the event to be concrete evidence, just hearsay accounts. However, it doesn't mean it's not true.

All of these people mentioned above are not worshipped as Gods. So...

 

[rolling7]

Mark was not an eyewitness, didn't you know that? He was a discipline of Peter's. Neither was Luke. You know what's interesting about Luke? The fact that he was a companion to Paul who never witnessed anything too. Both Mark and Luke were responsible for recalling the stories that they were told by Matthew and the others.

So you want to quibble with history. Ok, IKE and PETER were leaders and had aides who write letters and kept notes. So if you want to dismiss PETERS aide, you must dismiss IKE's aide. And to do that you have really lost your marbles.

 

[TWA]

I have no doubt that Jesus was a spiritual master, but there were many throughout history. Buddha, Mohammad, Krishna and many others come to mind. I have learned that they all represent the same ideal, so it doesn't matter whom you focus on, as long as you are comfortable with it. I read the Bhagavad Gita along with the Bible, and really, I do not see what the big deal is over physical proof of their existence. I think I saw part of nirvana when I had my near death experience, and that is a great comfort to me.

Ooh, interesting. Care to elaborate on the NDE? I am always interested in these. I did a bit of research on NDEs in order to write a story about a man who dies while riding a motorcycle but then comes back to life. When he comes back, he feels like he is out of place, existing between two worlds. Not part of the living and not part of the dead. I made it an extended metaphor for a cochlear implant.

 

[deafskeptic]

What historical evidence? The writings of the gospels were done more than a hundred years after the supposed passing of Jesus Christ with the exception of Paul's writings which was done around 40 years after the passing.

Other than that, there's no evidence, at least not physical. There's no historical documents that were created during Jesus Christ's lifetime.

Evidently some people aren't aware of how the canonization of the Bible came about. There were many Bibles other than the current and official version of our bible and I'm sure the same could be said for the Torah as well.

The Catholic Bible has some books that are not included in the Protestant Bible.

 

[Reba]

No, because indoctrination has everything to do with PTSD. Since you consistently make reference to your "military background" one would think you would be more well informed regarding the most common disorder suffered by returning vets.

I know what PTSD is. What you haven't satisfactorily explained is its connection to this unverified "indoctrination."

PTSD usually occurs as a result of a stressful combat event. What does that have to do with an officer supposedly indoctrinating the troops?

Do you have proof that this undocumented "indoctrination" caused PTSD in any troops?

 

[Reba]

Of course that is what I am saying. Someone is being purposely obtuse.:roll:

Not obtuse, at all. Either Obama is the most incompetent Commander in Chief for not knowing what's going on, or he's the most devious one for promoting such a policy of indoctrination to exist.

It's ironic that he could track every live detail of the raid on OBL in Pakistan but he has no clue about what his officers are telling the combat troops.

 

[Reba]

Then to be privy to all the conversations and indoctrination, he would have to have a nanny cam set up.

Military wide indoctrination like that would require a service-wide directive by the President.

Do you know how mandatory service-wide sexual harassment training was implemented? President Clinton sent a directive to all the services mandating it.

 

[kokonut]

I merely said that the historical records that were created after the passing of someone cannot be used to prove one's existence. I never said that Jesus Christ doesn't exist, but that it cannot be proven.

I just don't consider "historical records" that were created long after the event to be concrete evidence, just hearsay accounts. However, it doesn't mean it's not true.

All of these people mentioned above are not worshipped as Gods. So...

Never said they were worshipped as gods.

When you have a preponderance of historical evidences supported from multiple independent sources, personal writings, and eye witnesses accounts from people regarding a particular historical figure then you have documented evidence that a person actually existed. How do you know Matthew existed? Luke? Paul? Mark? Etc? The same for many, many historical figures of antiquity. Did Moses exist? What about certain Roman aristocrats? Greek philosophers?

Did Aristotle ever existed? What about Plato or Socrates? How can you be so sure? Aristotle lived in 450 B.C. to 385 B.C. He is a philosopher. He writes. The oldest document from Aristotle is from 900 A.D. even though he wrote in 400 B.C. and so we have gap of 1,300 years from the time when he wrote to the oldest surviving manuscript. There are several copies of those manuscripts.

What about Sophocles? A playwright and poet. He did his writings around 400 AD. Yet his oldest surviving manuscript is around 1000 AD. That is a gap of 600 years. There are about 100 copies of it.

When you have a preponderance of evidences from independent sources regarding historical figures then they are your historical evidences that are solid and true.

 

[dogmom]

I think Jesus the MAN probably existed and that he may have been a very spiritual and fore-thinking person for his time <or not> but that he was just a guy. Not anything beyond that.

 

[jillio]

Funny thing tho', Jesus Christ was also mentioned in the Quran as a historical figure that existed calling him (considered Him only as a prophet) as "Jesus Christ the son of Mary." Two very different and separate documents pointing out a historical figure, the Bible and the Quran (from a historical perspective, not theologically), that existed. And then you have the historical documents called "letters" written separately by some of the Apostles (many years later after Jesus was persecuted on the cross) in various locations at different times who were witnesses to the existence of Jesus Christ. One good example is Paul's letters where he wrote the Book of Galatians describing Jesus. All this can be read in the New Testament.

On Paul's letters:
Codex Sinaiticus - Significance

And the date:

Codex Sinaiticus - About Codex Sinaiticus

And then you have other Apostles:



Fragment from world's oldest Bible found hidden in Egyptian monastery - Africa - World - The Independent

In short, Jesus Christ is a real, historical figure of the time.

Like we all believe you have read the Quran!

 

[jillio]

Military wide indoctrination like that would require a service-wide directive by the President.
Do you know how mandatory service-wide sexual harassment training was implemented? President Clinton sent a directive to all the services mandating it.

Quite obviously, it doesn't.

 

[deafskeptic]

Funny thing tho', Jesus Christ was also mentioned in the Quran as a historical figure that existed calling him (considered Him only as a prophet) as "Jesus Christ the son of Mary." Two very different and separate documents pointing out a historical figure, the Bible and the Quran (from a historical perspective, not theologically), that existed. And then you have the historical documents called "letters" written separately by some of the Apostles (many years later after Jesus was persecuted on the cross) in various locations at different times who were witnesses to the existence of Jesus Christ. One good example is Paul's letters where he wrote the Book of Galatians describing Jesus. All this can be read in the New Testament.

On Paul's letters:
Codex Sinaiticus - Significance

And the date:

Codex Sinaiticus - About Codex Sinaiticus

And then you have other Apostles:



Fragment from world's oldest Bible found hidden in Egyptian monastery - Africa - World - The Independent

In short, Jesus Christ is a real, historical figure of the time.

According to all of your sources, the Codex Sinaiticus was written during the 4th century. So it can't have been written during his life time.