Church's 'Scumbags Welcome' Message Irks Some

That is pretty black and white.

So it is entirely inappropriate to try to reach those who might not otherwise be reached through music you don't feel is Christian?
People are saved by the Word of God and the conviction of the Holy Spirit. No one is saved by rock music.

People might get a "feeling" thru rock music but that doesn't save their souls. That feeling appeals to their flesh and emotions, not to their eternal souls.
 
According to who?
According to the principles of the Bible.

"Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."
Philippians 4:8

Putting a few religious phrases into a rock song doesn't change the basic nature of the music.
 
I attended a Church several times when invited by a friend on Sunday mornings. They also had a band up front, all young people playing. They also played on Saturday evenings at the same Church and a lot of teenagers attended....and my boys were there.
I see nothing wrong with it....at least the teenagers are not running the streets or doing drugs. They are at the Church. They were reaching out for the younger generation, and of course, the music is different from the older generation, still it's Christian music. They are worshiping God too.
Just becuz it doesn't "fit the same shoe" as the "older generation", doesn't mean it wrong....times change, so does music.
 
The Bible says that Christians are supposed to meet together for worship every Sunday in remembrance of the day of Christ's resurrection. They can, and should, meet even more frequently than just Sunday morning but Sunday is the primary day set aside for corporate worship.

Why are churches copying the ways of the world? Christians are supposed to be salt and light to the world, not cheap imitations of the world.

Do the same people who attend the Saturday night rock concert get up Sunday morning and attend worship services at that church?

What is your definition of a "successful" Christian church? Did Christ call His churches to be "successful?"

Rock music is not compatible to the worship of the Lord and Savior of Christians. A Christian church can't be both Biblically sound and promoting rock music. Those two things are diametrically opposed to each other.

Show me where the bible says rock music is banned.

If you notice, secular rock and Christian rock sound nothing alike. At least to me anyway. Christian rock is lighter, more upbeat, and has less complicated melodies. It's simple rock that my 7 y/o can keep up with. Secular rock tends to me more vocally and musically complex, the lyrics are deeper and darker, and can be much more flashy.

As for the day of worship, it never states specifically Sunday but rather every 7th day, which could be any day of the week, but it's the same day every week making it every 7th day. Plus I've noticed churches offering services on different days/nights of the week so those who have to work on Sunday mornings during 'tradictional' worship can still make it to a service some other day or night when they are free. Some people work 7 days a week and must catch taped versions of sermons on the Internet or on TV.

I attend a traditional services every Sunday morning but I'm open to other varieties and types of worship. I try to keep an open mind. :)
 
I attended a Church several times when invited by a friend on Sunday mornings. They also had a band up front, all young people playing. They also played on Saturday evenings at the same Church and a lot of teenagers attended....and my boys were there.
Were your boys saved by the rock music?

I see nothing wrong with it....at least the teenagers are not running the streets or doing drugs. They are at the Church.
There are lots of good activities that keep teenagers off the streets but they don't fulfill the work of the Gospel.

While they were in church did they hear the Gospel preached? Were they saved by the music?

They were reaching out for the younger generation, and of course, the music is different from the older generation, still it's Christian music.
How is it Christian music?

They are worshiping God too.
How? In what way?

Just becuz it doesn't "fit the same shoe" as the "older generation", doesn't mean it wrong....times change, so does music.
It has nothing to do with generations. I grew up with rock music but that didn't save my soul. I was saved by the Word of God when I was almost 29 years old.

Times and music might change but God does not.
 
I like this bulletin board in Michigan (maybe Clawson or close by). This one said "CH--CH: What's missing?".
 
Show me where the bible says rock music is banned.
Since rock music wasn't around when the Bible was written you know that there is no "thou shalt not listen to rock music" verse. There are no verses about cars, TV, or computers either but that's why the Bible provides principles that can guide people without having to spell out every possible circumstance that might occur.

Of course, you knew that.

If you notice, secular rock and Christian rock sound nothing alike.
They sound exactly alike. If a non-English speaking person were to listen to a "Christian" rock song being performed in English and a secular rock song being performed in English, he would never know the difference between them.

At least to me anyway. Christian rock is lighter, more upbeat, and has less complicated melodies.
The secular music world calls that pop rock, which is still secular.

It's simple rock that my 7 y/o can keep up with.
Simple doesn't mean Christian.

Secular rock tends to me more vocally and musically complex, the lyrics are deeper and darker, and can be much more flashy.
I've observed samples of deep, dark, flashy "Christian" rock being performed.

As for the day of worship, it never states specifically Sunday but rather every 7th day, which could be any day of the week, but it's the same day every week making it every 7th day.
Where did you read that? If that were the case, then some churches would have their main worship service every Thursday, some would have it every Monday, etc. That would be more confusing than orderly.

There's no limit to meeting to worship God but the day that is set aside for the Lord and His worship is Sunday, the first day of the week, as it was the day of His resurrection.

Of course, Christians can meet more often than that but they shouldn't meet on other days to the neglect of Sunday.
 
According to the principles of the Bible.

"Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."
Philippians 4:8

Putting a few religious phrases into a rock song doesn't change the basic nature of the music.

Well, rock music didn't exist at the time of the bible was created. So, that's a weak argument if you ask me.
 
Of course, Christians can meet more often than that but they shouldn't meet on other days to the neglect of Sunday.

Does it make a difference on which day of the week Jesus was resurrected? It has been argued that he did not resurrect on a Sunday, but Saturday and that he was crucified on a Wednesday instead of a Friday.

People can say what they want to, but in the end, the dates are meaningless. It's the faith that is important to the people.
 
Since rock music wasn't around when the Bible was written you know that there is no "thou shalt not listen to rock music" verse. There are no verses about cars, TV, or computers either but that's why the Bible provides principles that can guide people without having to spell out every possible circumstance that might occur.

Of course, you knew that.


They sound exactly alike. If a non-English speaking person were to listen to a "Christian" rock song being performed in English and a secular rock song being performed in English, he would never know the difference between them.
Actually they can.


The secular music world calls that pop rock, which is still secular.
And it's still different from the 'secular pop rock' believe me I can easily tell the difference and I'm d/hh. :shock:

Simple doesn't mean Christian.
No, it doesn't but it is generally musically less complex than secular rock.


I've observed samples of deep, dark, flashy "Christian" rock being performed.
what you call deep dark flashy Christian rock is probably totally different from what my definition of deep dark flashy Christian rock. Frankly to me it doesn't exist. If it does it comes out so cheesy that I have to switch the radio just to get reprieve from it. Believe me - Christian rock vocals are more flat, the lyrics repeat themselves over and over - all the songs are the same theme over and over - which is PRESENTING THE GOSPEL IN ROCK FORMAT.
Where did you read that? If that were the case, then some churches would have their main worship service every Thursday, some would have it every Monday, etc. That would be more confusing than orderly.

What about churches that meet on Saturday evening? Traditionally the Sabbath is from sundown Saturday until sundown Sunday. Therefore it still falls on the Sabbath. Our westernized 24 hour clock minds tell us otherwise.
There's no limit to meeting to worship God but the day that is set aside for the Lord and His worship is Sunday, the first day of the week, as it was the day of His resurrection.
Exactly there is no limit but there are folks that do the work of the Gospel and *gasp!* they go to church on Tuesday nights because their schedule does not allow for a Sunday worship. There are also churches that have a 'traditional' Sunday Service but also offer age-specific contemporary services on other days such as Wednesday night services for children and Youth. Then on Saturday nights they offer a service that is geared towards the collegiate crowd. Sometimes these other services are all these groups have to hearing the Gospel presented to them. There are parents to dump their children off at the church on Wednesday nights because it's free babysitting for 2-3 hours. The college kids aren't comfortable with a traditional service but they are content with the collegiate service on Saturday nights.

You can worship God at any time at any place in any way. God searches the heart for sincerity. If you are sincere in your worship, He will find that favorable.

Of course, Christians can meet more often than that but they shouldn't meet on other days to the neglect of Sunday.
I think God cares less about the neglect of Sunday but cares more about the neglect of your faith and your relationship with Him.[/QUOTE]
 
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsG5V-o6uxY]YouTube - Argent - God Gave Rock And Roll To You[/ame]


God gave rock and roll to you
gave rock and roll to you
put it in the soul of everyone,
god gave rock and roll to you
gave rock and roll to you
saved rock and roll for everyone

love your friend and love your neighbour
love your life and love your neighbour
no it's never too late to change your mind
don't step on snails, don't climb in trees,
love cliff richard but please don't tease
it's never too late to change your mind

god gave rock and roll to you,
gave rock and roll to you
put it in the soul of everyone
god gave rock and roll to you
gave rock and roll to you
saved rock and roll for everyone

if you wanna be a singer or play guitar
man you've gotta sweat or you won't get far,
coz it's never too late to work 9 to 5
and if you're young then you'll never grow old
music can make your dreams unfold
how good it feels to be alive

god gave rock and roll to you
gave rock and roll to you
put it in the soul of everyone
god gave rock and roll to you
gave rock and roll to you
saved rock and roll for everyone
 
Well, rock music didn't exist at the time of the bible was created. So, that's a weak argument if you ask me.
The principles of holy living were established since the beginning. Nothing weak about that.

Internet kiddie porn didn't exist during the time that the Bible was written either but the principles of the Bible exist that condemn its viewing.

Technology and the passage of time don't determine what is right or wrong. God does.

People are free to accept that or not but they will have to live with the consequences of their choices.
 
Of course, you knew that.

Actually they can.
I've heard "Christian" rock, and even when I can make out the lyrics, it sounds just like secular rock. The staging is even the same.


And it's still different from the 'secular pop rock' believe me I can easily tell the difference and I'm d/hh. :shock:

No, it doesn't but it is generally musically less complex than secular rock.
Since I have lived thru every kind of rock era, I can tell that there is no difference between the two. Whether or not you want to accept that is up to you. Rock music is rock music, whether its labeled Christian or secular. If "Christian" rock didn't sound the same as secular rock, what would be the point of using it? It's because of its similarity to the world's music that it's popular. That's the whole point. It's churches using the world's methods and entertainment instead of being an influence for holiness.


what you call deep dark flashy Christian rock is probably totally different from what my definition of deep dark flashy Christian rock. Frankly to me it doesn't exist. If it does it comes out so cheesy that I have to switch the radio just to get reprieve from it. Believe me - Christian rock vocals are more flat, the lyrics repeat themselves over and over - all the songs are the same theme over and over - which is PRESENTING THE GOSPEL IN ROCK FORMAT.
I've heard those songs, and they are not presenting the Gospel in any way that honors the message. Yes, they do use a lot of repitition so the mind doesn't really have to think about the meaning of what is being said.

The message of the Gospel is to lead people out of the lost world and lost life into a new world and new life with Jesus.


What about churches that meet on Saturday evening?
Why do they meet on Saturday instead of Sunday? What is the reason that they don't meet on Sunday?

Traditionally the Sabbath is from sundown Saturday until sundown Sunday. Therefore it still falls on the Sabbath. Our westernized 24 hour clock minds tell us otherwise.
Christians don't observe the Sabbath but the Lord's day. We celebrate the brightness of the new day of Christ's resurrection.


Exactly there is no limit but there are folks that do the work of the Gospel and *gasp!* they go to church on Tuesday nights because their schedule does not allow for a Sunday worship. There are also churches that have a 'traditional' Sunday Service but also offer age-specific contemporary services on other days such as Wednesday night services for children and Youth. Then on Saturday nights they offer a service that is geared towards the collegiate crowd. Sometimes these other services are all these groups have to hearing the Gospel presented to them.
Where does the Bible say that believers should worship in different ways in separate groups?

Corporate worship provides for the fellowship of different ages, income levels, life experiences, and levels of spiritual maturity.

There are parents to dump their children off at the church on Wednesday nights because it's free babysitting for 2-3 hours.
We also have special programs for children on Wednesday nights but that's in addition to, not in place of Sunday worship. We worship together on Sunday mornings and evenings. We have prayer meetings and youth programs on Wednesday nights. There are also other events at various times. But those don't substitute for the Sunday services.

When you say parents dump their children off at church, then you mean that is an opportunity for the children of non-believers to be exposed to the Gospel. That's great for community outreach, and our church provides that also but that's not in place of a church service. While members' children attend those programs, the adult members have prayer meetings in another part of the building.

The college kids aren't comfortable with a traditional service but they are content with the collegiate service on Saturday nights.
Why is that?

You can worship God at any time at any place in any way. God searches the heart for sincerity. If you are sincere in your worship, He will find that favorable.
God also knows the difference between people's sincere worship and laziness, convenience, or compromise to the world. He's not fooled.
 
Reba: Keep in mind that this comes from an unbelieving heathen, but whether you can tell or not, there really really is a very different sound. It's been around long enough that "Christian rock" has developed into its own music style all its own. You will find very few people who enjoy actual rock music who would enjoy Christian rock, even if they couldn't hear the lyrics.

However, I'm curious. You seem to have an idea in your mind of what "True Christian Music™" is (and by implication, anything that isn't that, isn't True Christian Music™). So... what defines that? Does it require an organ, piano, a capella singer, 75% of the verses to have biblical quotes in them, or anything else similar to that? Assuming that's not the case (correct me if I'm wrong), does it have something to do with the intentions of the composer/performer? Does it count if (to use your own terminology), someone is "saved by it"?

If the above questions are unanswerable for whatever reason, are there at least guidelines that demonstrate what would disqualify something from being True Christian Music™? The presence of a guitar, drums or a human beatbox? Unpure thoughts in the mind of the composer/artist?
 
Reba: Keep in mind that this comes from an unbelieving heathen, but whether you can tell or not, there really really is a very different sound. It's been around long enough that "Christian rock" has developed into its own music style all its own. You will find very few people who enjoy actual rock music who would enjoy Christian rock, even if they couldn't hear the lyrics.
Ahh . . . so to say that "Christian" rock will draw in non-believers is a fallacy. Interesting.

However, I'm curious. You seem to have an idea in your mind of what "True Christian Music™" is (and by implication, anything that isn't that, isn't True Christian Music™). So... what defines that? Does it require an organ, piano, a capella singer, 75% of the verses to have biblical quotes in them, or anything else similar to that? Assuming that's not the case (correct me if I'm wrong), does it have something to do with the intentions of the composer/performer? Does it count if (to use your own terminology), someone is "saved by it"?
There is no exact instrument list. It has more to do with the sound of the music, such as beat and rhythm. That is, does the song sound like a rock song.

There is no percentage of Scripture that has to be included but whatever the lyrics are they must be correct scripturally. That is, the message the lyrics convey must be accurate according to Bible doctrine. For example, if the lyrics said that baptism washes away sins, that would be incorrect according to the Scriptures.

A song performed for the glory of God should keep the focus on God, not self. The singer shouldn't use a hand-held mike, gyrate, overly emote, dress to stand out, or seek applause. The audience shouldn't applause the singer or instrumentalists but give glory to God with "amen" and hands raised to God (for example).

It does matter who wrote the composition. We use songs written by believers.

Scripturally-based songs can lead people to salvation by presenting the Gospel and convicting the heart. The goal of the song is to encourage the listener to think about the message and its application to the listener's life. That's why the message has to be clear and accurate.

That doesn't mean that Christians have to listen to specifically Christian music exclusively 24/7. It means that music presented in a church service must be Christian music.

If the above questions are unanswerable for whatever reason, are there at least guidelines that demonstrate what would disqualify something from being True Christian Music™? The presence of a guitar, drums or a human beatbox? Unpure thoughts in the mind of the composer/artist?
We have church members who play Christian songs on acoustic guitars for services. No electric guitars or bass. No beatbox.

The church orchestra includes drums, such as kettle, and other percussion but not band-type drum sets.

We have most of the instruments that a small orchestra would have. We also have a hand-bell choir.
 
Hmmm. "Scumbag" is the worst thing you can call a cop.
 
Ahh . . . so to say that "Christian" rock will draw in non-believers is a fallacy. Interesting.

Hah, well, I didn't say that, so I won't bother defending it. But my intuition would lead me to believe that no, it probably won't. Mind you, my intuition would also lead me to believe that no sort of fancy music (or any other gimmicks) would draw in non-believers. For that, you need a message that is true and actually reflects reality. But that's an entirely different topic. :P

I always thought the purpose of religious music was to be another form of "worship".


There is no exact instrument list. It has more to do with the sound of the music, such as beat and rhythm. That is, does the song sound like a rock song.

Well, I still don't understand what is intrinsically "non-biblical" about the "sound" of Christian rock, or any other music, honestly. It seems similar to claiming that English or ASL is a "non-biblical" language, and thus no preaching in that language can be "True Preaching" regardless of the message.

There is no percentage of Scripture that has to be included but whatever the lyrics are they must be correct scripturally. That is, the message the lyrics convey must be accurate according to Bible doctrine. For example, if the lyrics said that baptism washes away sins, that would be incorrect according to the Scriptures.

Well, okay. Here you're getting into semantics about individual beliefs, so I'll defer on that ground, since I think almost all biblical beliefs (in regards to the supernatural like what you referenced, rather than some generic moral beliefs, like your comment about kiddie porn) are contrived and meaningless.

However, I'm sure you can easily think of a Christian rock song that has what you consider "biblically accurate" lyrics. So, for the rest of this, pretend like we're only talking about songs which are "right", lyrically.

A song performed for the glory of God should keep the focus on God, not self. The singer shouldn't use a hand-held mike, gyrate, overly emote, dress to stand out, or seek applause. The audience shouldn't applause the singer or instrumentalists but give glory to God with "amen" and hands raised to God (for example).

I'm not really sure that using a handheld microphone, gyrating (really? Like the complaints about Elvis in the '50s?), or strongly emoting necessarily causes the focus to be on the self, rather than the subject of the song (in this case, God). It could simply be that the singer would not be truly expressing their feelings towards God accurately if they had to stand still in front of a stationary microphone and not move while singing.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it possible to both "praise God" and be appreciative of the performer at the same time? Requiring audience responses to match the format of the very stereotypical Southern Baptist call/response to be "true responses" equally seems limiting, since not everyone who feels the "true response" of praise/worship will necessarily express that in that manner.

It does matter who wrote the composition. We use songs written by believers.

Fair enough, but I'd be willing to bet that a lot of Christian rock is also written by believers. Again, as with the lyrics, feel free to pretend like the stuff written and performed by non-believers doesn't count - that certainly doesn't exclude all or even the majority of Christian rock.

Scripturally-based songs can lead people to salvation by presenting the Gospel and convicting the heart. The goal of the song is to encourage the listener to think about the message and its application to the listener's life. That's why the message has to be clear and accurate.

I'm sure at least some people who enjoy Christian rock do react that way. Someone who is more comfortable and familiar with Christian rock than, say, Gregorian chant (not me, mind you) might find the message from a Christian rock song more "clear" than other forms of music. That's why there are many different kinds of music.

That doesn't mean that Christians have to listen to specifically Christian music exclusively 24/7. It means that music presented in a church service must be Christian music.

Right, I assumed we were still talking about music that was being performed within religious services. Glad we're still on the same page.

We have church members who play Christian songs on acoustic guitars for services. No electric guitars or bass. No beatbox.

The church orchestra includes drums, such as kettle, and other percussion but not band-type drum sets.

We have most of the instruments that a small orchestra would have. We also have a hand-bell choir.

Right, my question was more, is there anything inherent to these instruments that your church doesn't use, that precludes their usage from True Christian Music? (And if so, would you also say there might be some languages, which because of some feature of the language, precludes its usage from True Preaching as well?)
 
Hah, well, I didn't say that, so I won't bother defending it. But my intuition would lead me to believe that no, it probably won't.
Sorry, I didn't mean that you said that. That's one of the defenses supporters of "Christian" rock use.

... Mind you, my intuition would also lead me to believe that no sort of fancy music (or any other gimmicks) would draw in non-believers. For that, you need a message that is true and actually reflects reality. But that's an entirely different topic. :P

I always thought the purpose of religious music was to be another form of "worship".
That is one purpose, yes. We have many songs that praise and thanks to God for Who He is and for what He has done, and will do. That's always included.

It also prepares the heart and mind for further worship and for the preaching of the Gospel.

It's also a way to express the Scriptures in musical form, such as how people used the Psalms in previous centuries.


Well, I still don't understand what is intrinsically "non-biblical" about the "sound" of Christian rock, or any other music, honestly.
The intrinsic rhythm and beat of rock music appeals sensually to the flesh. (Perhaps I can go into more detail when I get home from work late tonight.)

It seems similar to claiming that English or ASL is a "non-biblical" language, and thus no preaching in that language can be "True Preaching" regardless of the message.
No, that's not the same thing at all. There is no non-biblical language. There is non-biblical content and non-biblical methods that preachers might use that would be wrong.

If anything, it is Christians who want to put the Bible into as many languages as possible, and it is Christians who support literacy to make the Bible as accessible as possible.


Well, okay. Here you're getting into semantics about individual beliefs, so I'll defer on that ground, since I think almost all biblical beliefs (in regards to the supernatural like what you referenced, rather than some generic moral beliefs, like your comment about kiddie porn) are contrived and meaningless.
Fair enough.

However, I'm sure you can easily think of a Christian rock song that has what you consider "biblically accurate" lyrics. So, for the rest of this, pretend like we're only talking about songs which are "right", lyrically.
Umm, no, I can't think of any "Christian" rock songs that have biblically accurate lyrics. Of course, I don't know the lyrics to every song written. :)


I'm not really sure that using a handheld microphone, gyrating (really? Like the complaints about Elvis in the '50s?),
Elvis was a secular performer on a stage, singing for money. I'm not commenting on that. The discussion is about Christian music. Totally not relevant.

or strongly emoting necessarily causes the focus to be on the self, rather than the subject of the song (in this case, God). It could simply be that the singer would not be truly expressing their feelings towards God accurately if they had to stand still in front of a stationary microphone and not move while singing.
They do it all the time. :) The content of the song is enough to stir hearts and minds.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it possible to both "praise God" and be appreciative of the performer at the same time?
One can appreciate the efforts of the performer without applause. Church isn't a theater or sports stadium.

Requiring audience responses to match the format of the very stereotypical Southern Baptist call/response to be "true responses" equally seems limiting, since not everyone who feels the "true response" of praise/worship will necessarily express that in that manner.
The audience isn't required to respond in any certain way; I said those were examples. I've never been a member of a Southern Baptist church, so I can't say what they do or not do during their services.


Fair enough, but I'd be willing to bet that a lot of Christian rock is also written by believers. Again, as with the lyrics, feel free to pretend like the stuff written and performed by non-believers doesn't count - that certainly doesn't exclude all or even the majority of Christian rock.
I don't make or take bets. :giggle:

It's possible that believers are involved in "Christian" rock. Many believers, especially new ones, are involved in lots of things that they don't know the full truth about. That doesn't make it OK.

I was asked why I was bothered by it, and I've given my explanation. That's all. Mine is just another perspective on the issue.


I'm sure at least some people who enjoy Christian rock do react that way. Someone who is more comfortable and familiar with Christian rock than, say, Gregorian chant (not me, mind you) might find the message from a Christian rock song more "clear" than other forms of music. That's why there are many different kinds of music.
People do have different comfort levels. The only time I hear Gregorian chants are when they're included in a TV program or movie.


Right, my question was more, is there anything inherent to these instruments that your church doesn't use, that precludes their usage from True Christian Music?
The instrumentation of the songs we use at church wouldn't fit with rock-style instruments. Different instruments suit different kinds of music. Some are flexible to many forms, such as the piano, and some are not.

There is also the relationship of certain instruments to certain kinds of music. Most people can identify what a rock band set up looks like.

(And if so, would you also say there might be some languages, which because of some feature of the language, precludes its usage from True Preaching as well?)
I can't think of any, other than some languages don't have the vocabulary that includes specific religious terms. That, however, can be worked out. Do you have something specific in mind?
 
I could never understand having a relationship with God. You can have a relationship with a spouse, a friend, a pet, but you cannot have a relationship with yourself. In order to become one with God, how then can you have a relationship? Maybe it's just me.
 
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