Is it ever ok for kids NOT to use ASL?

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faire_jour said:
Ok. It shows that they will get further than the parents, but does it say they will become fluent users? What about learning appropriate levels of vocabulary? If a word is never used it is impossible to learn.
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Yes, dear, it does.

What about appropriate levels of vocab. A parent's vocab will increase at the same rate, or greater, than that of the child, if they make even a minimal effort to learn it.

Like I said, it is nothing more than an excuse for not putting forth the effort.

And a word used in spoken language, from which context cannot be determined for the deaf child, never becomes a part of their vocab. What's your point with this one?
 
Jiro said:
lol..... that applies to hearing people. Look at everywhere, Faire. You live in a country that's built by immigrants, populated by immigrants. Many (hearing) children of first-generation immigrants speak and write English better than their parents. Their source of learning isn't limited to parents. It's also school, friends, colleagues, tv, etc.
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:gpost:
 
jillio said:
Yes, dear, it does.

What about appropriate levels of vocab. A parent's vocab will increase at the same rate, or greater, than that of the child, if they make even a minimal effort to learn it.

Like I said, it is nothing more than an excuse for not putting forth the effort.

And a word used in spoken language, from which context cannot be determined for the deaf child, never becomes a part of their vocab. What's your point with this one?
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That is a big big problem among the parents I have met. They want the kids to put in the effort to meet their communication needs but feel they dont need to learn ASL. Ok whatever..
 
shel90 said:
That is a big big problem among the parents I have met. They want the kids to put in the effort to meet their communication needs but feel they dont need to learn ASL. Ok whatever..
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Exactly. If parents spent as much time learning ASL as they do coming up with excuses for not learning ASL, there would be no problem.
 
jillio said:
Yes, dear, it does.

What about appropriate levels of vocab. A parent's vocab will increase at the same rate, or greater, than that of the child, if they make even a minimal effort to learn it.

Like I said, it is nothing more than an excuse for not putting forth the effort.

And a word used in spoken language, from which context cannot be determined for the deaf child, never becomes a part of their vocab. What's your point with this one?
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This is just straight bullshit. AVT takes way more commitment and effort than the Deaf community and ASL ever did. All I really had to do to be seen as a good parent was send her away to a residental school, she would be part of the Deaf community, learn ASL and you all would be terribly happy.
 
faire_jour said:
This is just straight bullshit. AVT takes way more commitment and effort than the Deaf community and ASL ever did. All I really had to do to be seen as a good parent was send her away to a residental school, she would be part of the Deaf community, learn ASL and you all would be terribly happy.
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Faire_jour, you are terribly confused on many points. Sending a child away has absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about, or with learning ASL.

And it isn't about the time and effort you expend. It is about what you expend your time and effort on. Of course, trying to make a deaf child more like a hearing child requires more effort. So does trying to make a dog act like a cat.
 
ouch. be nice :)
 
faire_jour said:
This is just straight bullshit. AVT takes way more commitment and effort than the Deaf community and ASL ever did. All I really had to do to be seen as a good parent was send her away to a residental school, she would be part of the Deaf community, learn ASL and you all would be terribly happy.
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Which is easier for the parent? Make the child conform to their mode of communication or learn a new language?

Learning to speak and try to catch everything everyone is saying was very very difficult on us as kids. I remember the headaches and exhaustion at the end of the day. My parents never had to feel so exhausted day in and day out from just simply trying to communicate with the majority.

Besides, many of us believe in giving BOTH...again you are going back to as if we want ASL only with no opportunity to develop oral skills.
 
jillio said:
Like I said, it is nothing more than an excuse for not putting forth the effort.
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faire_jour said:
This is just straight bullshit. AVT takes way more commitment and effort than the Deaf community and ASL ever did. All I really had to do to be seen as a good parent was send her away to a residental school, she would be part of the Deaf community, learn ASL and you all would be terribly happy.
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And remember that the child is being more accomodating towards the parent as they want their approval. It wouldn't hurt the parent to be a little more accomodating towards the child in learning ASL.

It would be a win-win situation.
 
faire_jour said:
This is just straight bullshit. AVT takes way more commitment and effort than the Deaf community and ASL ever did. All I really had to do to be seen as a good parent was send her away to a residental school, she would be part of the Deaf community, learn ASL and you all would be terribly happy.
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Who is with the child all the time you are arguing here?

If you want to succeed either way with her you should spend some time with her.
 
Bottesini said:
Who is with the child all the time you are arguing here?

If you want to succeed either way with her you should spend some time with her.
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Oooohhhhhh that is gonna leave a mark!
 
Maybe, just maybe being put on meds might help many parents to expend the necessary effort. :D
 
Actually, no spoken/signed langauges are 100% accessible... it is estimated that as much as 20% of signed/spoken are lost but it just APPEARS to us that we understand 100%. Speech sounds are incredibly complex and many sound so similiar, it is easy to misinterpret what you hear but here's the thing, all languages have plenty of reduntancy to improve accessiblity. We quickly fill in the blank when we're not sure what we're getting by getting the whole context of whats' being said. Surprisingly, you may NOT really see the missing phonemes.

For example, if the "s" and "f" are removed from "sat" and "fat" in audiotape, people STILL hear them and be able to know which word. How do they know? They listen to the "shape" of the vowel if they miss out the consonant.

I am not sure the percent you need to have to understand and grasp languages though. I think it has to be around 90% and after that, you're pretty much getting everything you get.
 
Bottesini said:
Who is with the child all the time you are arguing here?

If you want to succeed either way with her you should spend some time with her.
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And I do. I was a stay at home mom until she started Kindergarten. I am merely saying that learning ASL and being involved in the Deaf community takes a small percentage of the effort that AV does. Speech and oral takes real time and work. The rest didn't. I certified at state level for interpreting when she was 4. That means it took 2 years to be "fluent", of course, I still learn more everyday and will never stop gain more skill. But really, it was nothing compared to what I have to do every single day to help her learn spoken language. Do not think that oral parents choose it because it is easier than ASL.

(By the way, we just got back from spending the evening at an indoor amusement park for kids with her Deaf best friend. Believe me, no one who knew me would ever accuse me of being a lazy or unconnected parent)
 
netrox said:
Actually, no spoken/signed langauges are 100% accessible... it is estimated that as much as 20% of signed/spoken are lost but it just APPEARS to us that we understand 100%. Speech sounds are incredibly complex and many sound so similiar, it is easy to misinterpret what you hear but here's the thing, all languages have plenty of reduntancy to improve accessiblity. We quickly fill in the blank when we're not sure what we're getting by getting the whole context of whats' being said. Surprisingly, you may NOT really see the missing phonemes.

For example, if the "s" and "f" are removed from "sat" and "fat" in audiotape, people STILL hear them and be able to know which word. How do they know? They listen to the "shape" of the vowel if they miss out the consonant.

I am not sure the percent you need to have to understand and grasp languages though. I think it has to be around 90% and after that, you're pretty much getting everything you get.
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Yep, that is 90% out of 100% availability. If one only has 90% available, and then looses another 10% through distraction, it is not an acceptable percentage for comprehension.
 
Whoa whoa.. back up... beep beep beep.

You guys honestly think that most of the time parents choose oralism JUST because they are too lazy to learn ASL?

-Wanting their child to be "normal"
-Belief that if they can speak they get more opportunities
-Trying to bring out the best in their child

and so on. I understand those but... out of laziness? I'm sure there's a few parents like that but most of them? Come on......
 
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