Selective abortion.

[jillio]

yes they "look" happy when you work with them... but sadly - with their mental capacity of young children, they are dependent on others and their parents die. Who are left to take care of them? the state? Not always the relatives are willing to take them in. Working with them and caring for them 24/7 are a completely different world. You as a worker do not have to care for them financially and socially so you're missing out another half of the reality....... like Palin and her down-syndrome kid.

A responsible mother has to think about the future of her disabled child in case she deceases.

Exactly. I wonder if dreama would become responsible for the care of these individuals?

 

[jillio]

Yes of course they should. I'm deaf blind. Do you think that if I get sick and need to go to hospital they should just let me die. Having a supposidly 'lesser' quality of life and everything ect etc. I sure hope I don't have you as my doctor!

I WANT TO LIVE!!!

Fallicious argument. Does not apply to the issue of a woman's right to choose. And just because you want to live does not give you the right to project your wants on anyone else.

 

[jillio]

Yes I would go through with the pregnancy. Sometimes doctor's get it wrong you know. Even if the baby only lives a couple of years then I cherish those years. A normal baby could also die in a couple of years too. The baby might get lukemia. Who knows. At least If I know when the baby will die I can prepare myself.

So you think it is perfectly justifiable to force a child to live two years in horrible intractable pain just to satisfy your selfish desire to procreate? And then you have the nerve to call yourself a humanitarian?

 

[jillio]

I'm having problems with Severe light sensitivity at the moment. Sometimes I'm just having to lie their feeling someone is bashing me about the head with a frying pan. Sure it's no bed of roses when that happens and such a thing is not fun as I'd rather be up and about. However I live for the times that I am happy and that is definately worth all that pain. I don't consider myself as selfish. I've kept disabled pets alive when my vet told me they were better off dead. They can be hard work, especially if you are not well yourself which sometimes is the case but I'd hate to live in a world where doctor's told humans that babies should be killed same as vet told me my pet should be killed because she had hind leg paralises but still had quality of life.

Sure life isn't always easy and pain can make one unhappy but at the end of it all I'd rather be alive and in pain then have everything end because I am determined to carry on with this life no matter what life throws at me. My dad said mum who was in a lot of pain with cancer did not want to die either. Unfortunately she did die though. But even with so much suffering she still was determined to stay around. It's something for people who promote Euthanasia to think about.

Euthanasia, as assisted by a physician at the end of life, is a decision made by the patient. You are assuming that choice is not involved, and you are mistaken.

You really need to stop projecting your feelings onto others.

 

[Oceanbreeze]

Fallicious argument. Does not apply to the issue of a woman's right to choose. And just because you want to live does not give you the right to project your wants on anyone else.

Thank you, Jillio. This obviously is a very emotional debate for some. It is for me, too. I've literally had to take several deep breaths before I've posted. I am purposely doing my best to remain calm and reply with objectively. Admittedly, it's not easy. Some of the points made apply to me directly. I, too, want to live. However, if my quality of life should suddenly deminish, I DO NOT want someone with an agenda making decisions for me. To that end, I've prepared a living will. I would encourage everyone to do the same. You never know when you'll need to rely on it and it's better to have one's wishes known then not. Remember Terri Schiavo?

Enough said.

 

[Jolie77]

As a disabled woman I'm afraid Selective abortion's are the VERY WORST types of abortion there are. I don't feel so strongly against aborting a healthy baby at 9 weeks as I do a disabled baby at 30 weeks. They are both wrong but the second type of abortion upsets me a lot more. Since if 12 weeks is for normal babies. 12 weeks should be also for EVERYBODY. Not 12 weeks or 24 weeks for normal babies and up till birth for the disabled because by saying that you say it is wrong to be disabled. As a disabled person myself I don't believe that for a minute. I just believe being disabled is DIFFERANT. I wouldn't even WANT to be normal. That would be ever so boring.

In the bolded statement - How is it different when aborting a fetus at 9 weeks and at 30 weeks?

What I mean by that is -- You said you don't feel strongly against aborting a healthy fetus at 9 weeks but yet, you feel a lot stronger for a disabled fetus at 30 weeks. Help me understand something here, How is it different feeling for an aborting a fetus at 9 weeks and at 30 weeks? Aren't they the both same thing, a fetus regardless of how many weeks they are?

I'm having problems with Severe light sensitivity at the moment. Sometimes I'm just having to lie their feeling someone is bashing me about the head with a frying pan. Sure it's no bed of roses when that happens and such a thing is not fun as I'd rather be up and about. However I live for the times that I am happy and that is definately worth all that pain. I don't consider myself as selfish. I've kept disabled pets alive when my vet told me they were better off dead. They can be hard work, especially if you are not well yourself which sometimes is the case but I'd hate to live in a world where doctor's told humans that babies should be killed same as vet told me my pet should be killed because she had hind leg paralises but still had quality of life.

Sure life isn't always easy and pain can make one unhappy but at the end of it all I'd rather be alive and in pain then have everything end because I am determined to carry on with this life no matter what life throws at me. My dad said mum who was in a lot of pain with cancer did not want to die either. Unfortunately she did die though. But even with so much suffering she still was determined to stay around. It's something for people who promote Euthanasia to think about.

I admire you for who you are and for what you think. It's fine for you to think of it this way for wanting to live. Some people would not mind the pain as long as they have the tolerance for the pain itself.

However, euthanasia has no relations to abortion. Don't get me wrong, I do value the life itself and would want the best for everyone as well but you have to understand, if you are in so much pain that you can't even bear it yourself, would it be even fair enough for the child to go through that too?

I mean, if my kids were in an extreme pain, I would wish it was me suffering the pain instead of my kids going through the pain. If I had the control and power, I'd be more than glad to trade the places with my kids so they don't have to go through the pain for what it is worth.

 

[Maria]

How is it wrong when one knows that they cannot be able to provide the needs for a disabled child (if they were not aborted)? Some disabilities are adaptive to be able to live with but unfortunately, it isn't the case since there are some other types of disabilities that can be a horror to the child and to it's parents as well.

The key word is - selective which means having the function or power of selecting; making a selection. So, therefore, by being selective to the abortion, it gives us a choice to whether to abort or not.


Mod's Note; -

Guys, On this note - It is understandable that there are different religion views which contains with the abortion issue but however, I am asking you guys not to sway this into a religion spectacle. Thank you.

Thanks, Jolie!!

 

[jillio]

Thank you, Jillio. This obviously is a very emotional debate for some. It is for me, too. I've literally had to take several deep breaths before I've posted. I am purposely doing my best to remain calm and reply with objectively. Admittedly, it's not easy. Some of the points made apply to me directly. I, too, want to live. However, if my quality of life should suddenly deminish, I DO NOT want someone with an agenda making decisions for me. To that end, I've prepared a living will. I would encourage everyone to do the same. You never know when you'll need to rely on it and it's better to have one's wishes known then not. Remember Terri Schiavo?

Enough said.

I, too, have a living will, and have appointed someone to make sure that my wishes are upheld. I, like you, think these issues are too personal to allow someone else to make them for me just to satisfy their misguided agenda.

 

[jillio]

As a disabled woman I'm afraid Selective abortion's are the VERY WORST types of abortion there are. I don't feel so strongly against aborting a healthy baby at 9 weeks as I do a disabled baby at 30 weeks. They are both wrong but the second type of abortion upsets me a lot more. Since if 12 weeks is for normal babies. 12 weeks should be also for EVERYBODY. Not 12 weeks or 24 weeks for normal babies and up till birth for the disabled because by saying that you say it is wrong to be disabled. As a disabled person myself I don't believe that for a minute. I just believe being disabled is DIFFERANT. I wouldn't even WANT to be normal. That would be ever so boring.

I've experienced lots of differant types of disabled people in my work as a masseur. Some had mental age of only a few months old. In a wheelchair with only limited movement but they were really HAPPY people. So their lives meant a lot to THEM. That's why I think we should always save disabled babies lives and not try to kill them EVER.

So now, you are placing more value on the disabled child's life than on the non-disabled child's life. That is nothing more than discrimination against the non-disabled. Further, you state that an abortion at 30 weeks of a normal child does not concern you, even though at 30 weeks, the fetus has reached the point of viability and has a good probability of living independently outside the womb. Yet you object to an abortion at 12 weeks, when an embryo has virtually no chance of survival outside the womb.

You are consistent in your contradictions, I'll give you that. :roll: None of them make sense.

 

[Jolie77]

Thanks, Jolie!!

You're welcome.

 

[KarissaMann05]

Okay... One thing come up from my mind...

If a disabled/sick child is more work harder than a 'normal' child... What kind of a society are we creating by aborting off sick or disabled human beings? If we abort the sick/disabled human being instead of attempting to cure the sickness or support & assistance disability needs, then what is the point of hospitals?


It's just my POV as a random post...

 

[Wokamuka]

If a disabled/sick child is more work harder than a 'normal' child... What kind of a society are we creating by aborting off sick or disabled human beings?

If the sick or disabiled human being is beyond repair or help, you'd think it is best to force the human being to be alive - remain in the dark, in constant pain, and in captivity? The ultimate right from being human is to be able to have choices and to make decisions. At this point, that right is not respected and is removed because of religion, politics, or projectioning. What kind of society considers this? A compassionate one.

If we abort the sick/disabled human being instead of attempting to cure the sickness or support & assistance disability needs, then what is the point of hospitals?

You go into a hospital, expecting to come out, right? You don't go to the hospital expecting to stay. That's the point of hospitals (for me).

 

[Jolie77]

Okay... One thing come up from my mind...

If a disabled/sick child is more work harder than a 'normal' child... What kind of a society are we creating by aborting off sick or disabled human beings? If we abort the sick/disabled human being instead of attempting to cure the sickness or support & assistance disability needs, then what is the point of hospitals?


It's just my POV as a random post...

IMO - Certainly, a disabled/sick child takes a lot of commitment to take care of. I mean, You know, I have a son who's autistic. That alone is challenging on a daily basis. Does that mean I'd abort him if I knew he was autistic when he was a fetus? No, I wouldn't. (But then, there's no way I would be knowing that because they don't identify autism in a fetus and that's another story)

But, Anyway, There are whole different varieties of disabilities and sick children out there. Some of the disabilities are severe enough to the point where a disable child/children are suffering for it down to the wire. Some of it can be cured, some of it cannot be cured. As for the seriousness of it's disability, they are at the point where they can be hanging onto their lives by a thread. So, therefore, the point of using a hospital is only for a length of time which means if we were to put thousands of disabled children in the hospital, the hospitals would be over tapped and it would exceed their quotas of providing a bed. That would be highly imperative to sought out for other resources.

To alleviate the suffering of a severely disabled child (whose lives are threatening) is not even fair because they can also be better off not living at all.

 

[dreama]

In the bolded statement - How is it different when aborting a fetus at 9 weeks and at 30 weeks?

What I mean by that is -- You said you don't feel strongly against aborting a healthy fetus at 9 weeks but yet, you feel a lot stronger for a disabled fetus at 30 weeks. Help me understand something here, How is it different feeling for an aborting a fetus at 9 weeks and at 30 weeks? Aren't they the both same thing, a fetus regardless of how many weeks they are?

Well sometime between 10 and 26 weeks the fetus starts feeling pain. Wikipedia says 26 weeks. SPUC say 10 weeks or possibly earier. If a fetus feels pain then it makes it worse to kill them in my mind. It must be very painful to be sucked out of the womb. It is ALWAYS wrong to kill but if I hear about a dog being killed and a spider being killed. Well I'd feel more strongly about the dog. Although both would be wrong but I know dogs more then I know spiders. Same as with the pre born. I don't know how much a 9 week old fetus feels but since their is mounting evidence that after 26 weeks the fetus starts being aware and feeling pain that makes it worse. Now do you see?

But as a pro lifer it is always wrong to kill. As a human I can feel more strongly about one type of murder then I do about another. Wouldn't you feel more strongly about a murder where the victim was made to suffere more? Even though murder would be wrong in any case except possibly self deffence?

In the case of the diabilites too. I'm disabled so I'd naturally Idenify more with the death of another disabled person, child, fetus rather then a non disabled one. On one hand with a non disabled fetus being aborted that is murder. On the other hand killing the disabled fetus is not just murder but it adds discrimination into the equazion too. I feel very strongly against discrimination as it affects me personally.

I feel personally attacked every time people condone murdering disabled fetuses or even disabled babies. It's saying to me that my life as a disabled person is worth less. It feels so much like some people would rather I was dead and that really depresses me. Especially when other disabled people feel that way. Don't they have any self worth at all. Or do they just not identify with being disabled because they think that this only applies to the severely disapabled when in reality it affects disabled fetuses with abnormalities as mild as downs syndrome or a cleft palet. A pro abortion woman with a visually impaired boyfriend on another message board said she would abort any baby her boyfriend had just because he has RP. So it's not just the severely affected that are getting killed.

Earlier someone else asked me to ask my dad what it was like to bring up a disabled child. I've done that and he says the hardest thing about bring me up isn't because I was disabled but he felt there was a lack of any sort of support. He said people didn't understand Asperger syndrome back then and were forever critizing him and mum for 'spoiling' me. That's a social thing though. In some coutries you would get less support if you brough a girl into the world.

The way I see it selective abortion of disabled, Euthanasia and discrimination are all linked since if people don't want us about and want to kill us they are going to make less accommodations for us. Less services and devices to help us manage. If the parents of the disabled are made to feel guilty for even daring to bring a disabled child into the world and I see signs of that happening that is VERY bad news for us.

 

[Wokamuka]

The way I see it selective abortion of disabled, Euthanasia and discrimination are all linked since if people don't want us about and want to kill us they are going to make less accommodations for us. Less services and devices to help us manage. If the parents of the disabled are made to feel guilty for even daring to bring a disabled child into the world and I see signs of that happening that is VERY bad news for us.

"Us" don't support disabled abortion. We're talking about severely disabled. "Us" is your view - not us.

 

[dreama]

"Us" don't support disabled abortion. We're talking about severely disabled. "Us" is your view - not us.

Mild and moderately disabled fetuses ARE being aborted including those that are Deaf/blind. It does NOT just affect the severely disabled whatever you may think. So that is why we SHOULD be against the killing of disabled fetuses. Plus these tests often don't measure severity of a disability. Rubella damage for instance. You can be severely brain damaged and need lifelong care with Rubella damage. You can also be just Deaf or visually impaired from rubella damage. Tests won't show that. Now do you understand?

 

[Hermes]

In the bolded statement - How is it different when aborting a fetus at 9 weeks and at 30 weeks?

What I mean by that is -- You said you don't feel strongly against aborting a healthy fetus at 9 weeks but yet, you feel a lot stronger for a disabled fetus at 30 weeks. Help me understand something here, How is it different feeling for an aborting a fetus at 9 weeks and at 30 weeks? Aren't they the both same thing, a fetus regardless of how many weeks they are?

The chicken egg you eat is not the chicken . It requires time (and right conditions) to become one. A fertilized woman's egg also needs time to become a baby. After certain time it will not be a fetus anymore and the woman will carry the baby instead. Thats what people see when they have ultrasound scan at these later stages , their baby with full set of organs move in their body.

So its a sensitive point while discussing abortion. At first stage there is not a baby yet, fertilized or not you are sacrifiying an egg. Later you carry a baby in your body. There are two sides of the argument. First a fertilized human egg is not the human himself (yet), but later is different. If you allow parents to kill the baby because baby is disabled , then would you allow parents to make same decision when baby grows up and now five years old? Can we kill disabled kids and end their misery?

I can see what is the difference between a fertilized woman's egg and a human, but what is the difference between a baby with all the organs in their place, and a kid?

They developed a new type of ultrasound scans. They are talking about the following findings:

From 12 weeks, unborn babies can stretch, kick and leap around the womb - well before the mother can feel movement
From 18 weeks, they can open their eyes although most doctors thought eyelids were fused until 26 weeks
From 26 weeks, they appear to exhibit a whole range of typical baby behaviour and moods, including scratching, smiling, crying, hiccuping, and sucking. *

There I am posting a picture of 12 weeks old in the womb. Do you see the head, arms , legs and everything? We cant see it but she has internal organs too. Can you tell me a 5 months old baby is a baby but this is not?

* http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3846525.stm

 

[Bottesini]

The chicken egg you eat is not the chicken . It requires time (and right conditions) to become one. A fertilized woman's egg also needs time to become a baby. After certain time it will not be a fetus anymore and the woman will carry the baby instead. Thats what people see when they have ultrasound scan at these later stages , their baby with full set of organs move in their body.

So its a sensitive point while discussing abortion. At first stage there is not a baby yet, fertilized or not you are sacrifiying an egg. Later you carry a baby in your body. There are two sides of the argument. First a fertilized human egg is not the human himself (yet), but later is different. If you allow parents to kill the baby because baby is disabled , then would you allow parents to make same decision when baby grows up and now five years old? Can we kill disabled kids and end their misery?

I can see what is the different between a fertilized woman's egg and a human, but what is the difference between a baby with all the organs in their place, and a kid?

There I am posting a picture of 12 weeks old in the womb. Do you see the head, arms , legs and everything? We cant see it but she has internal organs too. Can you tell me a 5 months old baby is a baby but this is not?

It looks like a baby to me.

 

[Byrdie714]

The chicken egg you eat is not the chicken . It requires time (and right conditions) to become one. A fertilized woman's egg also needs time to become a baby. After certain time it will not be a fetus anymore and the woman will carry the baby instead. Thats what people see when they have ultrasound scan at these later stages , their baby with full set of organs move in their body.

So its a sensitive point while discussing abortion. At first stage there is not a baby yet, fertilized or not you are sacrifiying an egg. Later you carry a baby in your body. There are two sides of the argument. First a fertilized human egg is not the human himself (yet), but later is different. If you allow parents to kill the baby because baby is disabled , then would you allow parents to make same decision when baby grows up and now five years old? Can we kill disabled kids and end their misery?

I can see what is the difference between a fertilized woman's egg and a human, but what is the difference between a baby with all the organs in their place, and a kid?

They developed a new type of ultrasound scans. They are talking about the following findings:

From 12 weeks, unborn babies can stretch, kick and leap around the womb - well before the mother can feel movement
From 18 weeks, they can open their eyes although most doctors thought eyelids were fused until 26 weeks
From 26 weeks, they appear to exhibit a whole range of typical baby behaviour and moods, including scratching, smiling, crying, hiccuping, and sucking. *

There I am posting a picture of 12 weeks old in the womb. Do you see the head, arms , legs and everything? We cant see it but she has internal organs too. Can you tell me a 5 months old baby is a baby but this is not?

* BBC NEWS | Health | Scans uncover secrets of the womb

No.

It's not a "baby" until it's detached from the host.

 

[KarissaMann05]

No?? hm, okay. ^_^;;