CrazyPaul

Not only hearing white people, Asians are one of them, too. That reminds me of my Asian ex-wife's embarrassing story about her mother who forbad her and her deaf brothers/sister to talk to each other by signing in public before they moved here from their country because her mother thought signing was not "professional".

Deafness

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tigersharkdude

you just won the internet, I shall hand over the reigns

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Anij

WOW, just WOW .... once again, so very glad I'm Canadian (where all of the above examples have been considered derogatory, racist and even whispering them "in jest" would thankfully get any minor instantly expelled from school, and any adult fired, for at least the last 30years ... YIKES)

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Ignorance is NOT Bliss

Reba

Was Berry talking about schools?

I think I grew up in the same era as Berry, and I lived in many states of the USA, and I don't hear all that, so that attitude wasn't everywhere.

When I was a teen, there was some joking about using so much manual expression but many of my friends, neighbors and my teachers were Italians, Greeks, and Jews, so that seemed the natural way to communicate. (I'm part Portuguese.) It wasn't anything derogatory.

I never heard the "act white" comments when I was growing up, which was over 40 years ago.

I'm not saying those things didn't happen but only that they didn't happen all over the USA.

I'm surprised that a minor would be instantly expelled from school for such an infraction. It seems to me that a teachable moment would be more in order, especially for a first offense.

Anij

Here's the thing - in most if not all Canadian schools, on the first day of classes each year students are given and explained the school rules, and the contents of their schools handbook.

This includes dress code, order of conduct, what is and in not permitted on school grounds etc. Children are also told that there is a zero tolerance policy in terms of racial, ethnic, linguistic, religious etc discriminatory comments and what will happen if someone makes said comments (orally, written or signed). Clear examples are given, questions are allowed to be asked etc. and then students and parents sign an agreement that the child will follow the rules set out or be disciplined accordingly.

It's not as if students are unaware that these are the rules ... they do. You break the rules, you pay the price.
Typically students are expelled/suspended for a week the first time, then progressively from there. Many schools also have mandatory counselling and cultural understanding sessions that must be attended.

Workplaces have similar contracts, and depending on the infraction the action which will be taken.

As a country that LOVES our diversity and encourages multilingualism, multiculturalism, etc at home, school and in the workplace, there is simply no room for comments that degrade, stereo-type etc anyone. By the time a child is school age they already know (and have been taught from family,friends, peers, media, etc) that making negative, derogatory, etc comments is not acceptable - and on the off chance they don't, they learn it the first few days of school (where their classmates are typically a wide spectrum of colours, religions, cultures and linguistic groups).

Do they occasionally happen, yes, are they tolerated in schools and workplaces - no.

Having lived and attended College in both the USA and Canada, I do know that the two countries have more different "norms" regarding what is allowed/acceptable to say (even in jest) and what is not.

There's a reason the USA is called a Melting Pot, and Canada a Mosaic.


(p.s. I most of my family are teachers, profs, and various educators all of which deal with this daily)

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Ignorance is NOT Bliss

Mountain Man

This is another one of those "it depends" situations. If the interpreter found the Deaf person difficult to understand because of their agitation then I think it would be appropriate to say, "Can you calm down? I'm having trouble understanding you." However, it would probably not be appropriate to just straight-up tell the Deaf person to calm down.

Berry

Have not heard the term "WASP" in so long I wasn't sure anyone would know what it meant.

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Living life in the sandbox.

Berry

This is another of those authority, control, issues. Whenever anyone is upset the person who wants control, or believes they should be in control, invariably demands the subordinate person "calm down and be reasonable."

However if you apply a little human understanding, and have a little patience, the person, and or persons, who are upset will calm down eventually when they have the emotions out of their system.

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Berry

No, I was not talking about schools, although teachers and many kids in school held similar attitudes.

You were not actually told to "Act White" you were told to "act like ladies and gentlemen" and other races, nationalities, were disparaged for not doing it. You may have grown up in the same era, and with many of the same cultures, but if you never had an all white contingent in your family explain that you were a product of miscegenation that was an offense against man and God that should have been aborted for the sake of decency, you will find it hard to understand my admittedly skewed viewpoints.

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dogmom

Berry, yeah, suppose that's true-

dogmom

part of privilege is not knowing or hearing about a lot of these things....and also not getting the "undertone" of something that appears to be benign -

Berry

And THAT is the truth.

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Living life in the sandbox.

Reba

You're right, I never experienced my family doing that. I'm sorry that you went thru that. That's a horrible thing to say to a child. I have mixed-race cousins of unmarried parents and they were never treated that way by our family. I also have other white cousins who are married to black spouses, and it's no big deal to the family. Not all of our relatives are American born either.

As far as school goes, when I was growing up, everyone was expected to behave politely in school, no matter who they were. That was also enforced by the students' parents. I went to public neighborhood schools, nothing special.

This is the part that is puzzling:

You were not actually told to "Act White" you were told to "act like ladies and gentlemen" and other races, nationalities, were disparaged for not doing it.

Since I didn't experience that, can you describe to me what behaviors would be considered "White," and why other races and nationalities wouldn't be doing them?

Mountain Man

The flipside of that is that if the interpreter genuinely can't understand the Deaf person then communication isn't happening, and whatever point they're trying to make isn't being conveyed to the other party. All the other party sees is an angry Deaf person waving their hands around, but they have no idea what is being said. I think it would be fair for an interpreter to inform the Deaf person of this difficulty and then let them decide what they want to do about it.

I see what you're saying, though, so it would probably be prudent to leave out the request for them to calm down and simply say, "I'm sorry, I'm having trouble understanding you right now, so I can't interpret."

Just to let you know, I would be inclined to use the same control with a hearing person who was agitated to the point that I couldn't effectively interpret for them.

Berry

I don't expect you to ever watch George Carlin, but in his early comedy he broke the cultural differences between WASPS and Blacks of the time to the bone. Gone With The Wind gives a pretty good lesson of what a lady should be like, partly because Scarlett resisted being one so well.

My mother was raised to be a lady. She taught me how to act like a gentleman in case I ever needed the skill. Fortunately for my humanity I have avoided the need.

In her day a lady sat on the front two or three inches of a chair, her knees together, to the side, preferably the right, her hands clasped on her thigh, not "in the lap" you see, her back was to be straight, never raise her voice, never look men, or people she did not know well in the eye. Always prim and proper. She was quite capable of walking around the room with a stack of books on her head.

First off I use the term "White" because the phrase was used, "Like decent white people" around me. WASP is a very accurate term. No one I ever met called themselves that. White, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant. I might add inhibited. American Bandstand was considered an absolute horror. Civilized dancing was formal, ball room dancing. I might add that in order to be civilized you needed both money, friends who were the "right kind" and a full knowledge of etiquette. Table manners were, and still are, important if you wish to rise in the social world. Not to mention proper grammar at all times.

You were always expected to behave politely, never naturally, do not raise your voice or use a lot of gestures as this was a sign you were "not in control of yourself" -- Please calm down and come back when you can act like a civilized person. You were never to become emotionally involved in any subject. Unless of course you were giving a speech to the masses.

Other races, other nationalities, often came from other cultures. Other cultures do not always believe that you have to be the WASP definition of a "Lady" or a "Gentleman" all the time.

Dancing in the streets? Standing on the corner, hollering at your friend across the street? Grown men in the front yard wrestling just for the fun of it? Bantering (That is calling each other names and putting each other down in verbal horseplay)? Just loud talking? Jumping up and down and waving? Men spraying each other down with beer on a hot summer's day? Singing while you worked?

Here is a more recent example: Not Our Kind, Dear" (NOKD)

The phrase was just like yours, No matter who they are they should be able to act civilized" like white people. "After all it doesn't cost a thing."

They would happily tell you they were nor prejudiced against any race, creed, or color -- So long as they acted civilized. It always comes down to that. "No matter who you are" you can "Act like a civilized person."

It is easy to see what side of the coin you are on. Do you see "being a lady" as the social ideal every woman of whatever race, creed, or color, should aspire too -- Or do you see a "lady" as a stuck up white broad who thinks she is better than everybody else?

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Berry

I never doubted you would say the same to a hearie.

But you are apt to receive a similar response as my 14 year old grand daughter gave when told by a secretary, "Young lady, you need anger management classes."

To which she replied, "You're damn right I do. Are you ready to take me outside and give me my first couple of lessons? Cause I'm up for it."

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Living life in the sandbox.

Reba

Other than short excerpts from his shows, I never watched a full Carlin performance but I'm familiar with him. He's been dead a few years now.

Maybe that's what a lady of ante-bellum South was like but that's not how the ladies of my lifetime were.

Wow, you did grow up in a restricted environment. Two of my cousins were on American Bandstand. I took dance lessons that included formal ballroom (taught by Russian immigrant dancers), and all the "hot" new dances of the 60's. In our family, class had nothing to do with money or material wealth (which is a good thing since we had no money). It was about behavior and knowledge.

I was taught that politeness meant showing consideration for other people. I guess that might be considered unnatural.

Interesting. Were these the rules of just your family? Or were they the rules of your society? Or both?

I guess if it's a "WASP" society, then people moving into it would assimilate those behaviors, just as WASPs moving into other societies would assimilate the behaviors of the other societies?

Sounds like my Yankee ancestors.

That wasn't my sentence.

Each society, in time and place, defines its standards of behavior.

I don't see anything ladylike about any woman, white, broad, or otherwise, who is stuck up or thinks she is better than everybody else.

Berry

No, I didn't. I am a halfbreed, remember? My mother was raised by whites. I wasn't. When she took up with another Indian they felt she had "reverted to type." It was not my environment. It was the WASP environment I was exposed to.

Of course now the general attitude towards Indians is no longer what it was in my youth. Now people with a teaspoon of Indian blood brag about their Native American ancestry. That wasn't the case then.

You are aware that Dick Clark, and American Bandstand, came under criticism for allowing non-whites and whites to mix on the dance floor? Another show, that followed a similar format, did not. Fortunately the show that survived was American Bandstand. So far as I know Dick Clark did not even acknowledge the controversy and it just disappeared.

From your posts I would consider you to have been raised middle class and to have suffered little or no prejudice yourself.

It would also explain why you have such a hard time believing it even exists.

It wasn't about money? And you had no money? But your family had the money to pay for your dance lessons?

In my neighborhood the rich kids had a TV and learned how to do the "hot" new dances of the sixties by watching American Bandstand. Nobody could afford dance lessons. Most of us couldn't afford a TV. I still don't have a clue how to dance any of those.

Politeness is only a small portion of manners. Also you can be excruciatingly polite and show absolutely no consideration for others.

Neither. You missed the point. I'm a halfbreed. I have no society. As for family, there was none. Just my mother and myself. We lived between worlds as outsiders. Non white, non Christian, non Indian.


I take it you did not read this Not Our Kind, Darling.

Those in positions of power set the standards of behavior and those who are not in power follow them or suffer the consequences.

What you see as "ladylike" and what being a lady consists of would appear to be at odds.

A lady is offended by ill manners, poor grammar, lack of courtliness, improper clothing, crudity, vulgarity, and all manner of other things. She is above them. A lady would never associate herself, or allow herself to be associated with, anyone with less than proper repute. Nor anyone who was of lower station than herself. That includes non protestants.

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Living life in the sandbox.

Mohave

Fine line between professionalism and overboard, definitely! I thought the whole reason to become an interpreter is because you get along with the community, not distance yourself from it.

Reba

That "WASP" restrictive environment is what I'm referring to. I suppose my immediate family environment would be considered WASP but it was nothing like what you experienced with your WASP relatives. One size does not fit all.

True. Now even people without Indian blood try to claim some.


Yes, I remember.

Economically, middle class when I was little, lower middle class from about age 10 to 15, middle class for one year, then lower class again. Basically, poor during my teen and pre-teen years.

You are correct that I didn't experience racial prejudice against myself. I was aware of it for others.

I never said that. Of course there are prejudiced people.

I earned money for my lessons, which weren't that expensive because the couple teaching them were Russian ex-pats who taught modern dance and baton, and had a parade unit that performed and competed. They did lots of stuff for little money. For my dance recital I wore a borrowed dress. (Most of my clothes were hand-me-downs from cousins, my grandmother and friends; it's funny that I was first-born yet I wore hand-me-downs; I had younger brother, so I couldn't pass them down. ) How many teenage girls now would wear hand-me-downs from their grandmothers?

Since I lived in an apartment less than a mile from downtown, I could walk to the classes.

I admit that we had a black & white TV with rabbit ears and a party-line phone.

In my neighborhood, there weren't any rich kids. One exception--our landlord's family had a car and a piano, so I considered them rich.


If someone is showing no consideration for others, that's not real politeness. Politeness and good etiquette is all about making others feel comfortable and respected.


So, their rules didn't apply to you?

I'm sorry that your families treated you that way. I'm just trying to say that not every family is like that, even when they are from different races, ethnicities, or cultures. My extended family included various races, nationalities, income levels, religions, and marital and birth statuses.


Yes, I did read it.

Or get off the path and set their own standards on the new path to positions of power.


You're right. What I consider a lady is not the same. To me, a lady wouldn't use ill manners, poor grammar, inappropriate clothing, crude or vulgar language, or mean attitude but she wouldn't pass out if anyone else did.

To me, a lady wouldn't make her close fellowships with people of dissimilar beliefs or unethical behaviors, regardless of socioeconomic status.

Being a lady has nothing to do with money or pretentiousness. It's all about having a gracious attitude.

Economically, my family was on the lower end but had friendly associations with wealthy people. There are some wealthy people who don't worry about impressing others, and they enjoy people's company just because they are interesting people. For those who are snobs, they aren't worth worrying about.

I can see where it would be very hurtful for your own family to have a snobby attitude, and to judge people for shallow reasons.

I don't deny that any of that exists. I hope you also don't deny that such attitudes and behavior are not universal.

Kitten

As an African-American native New Yorker, I always used my hands in conversations. Recently, a hearing ASL instructor said I was an "overly enthusastic" signer. Yes, I was insulted, but later after attending a lecture on Black ASL (I'm sorry, I forgot the name of the Professors who gave the lecture. They wrote a book; they're from Gallaudet), I learned that some minorities sign with more "flavor" than non-minorities. Personally, I think it's a NY thing. And a theatre thing, since I grew up in the theatre. At least for me.

metalangel

Er... going back to the topic (the book)... does it matter which edition I get? I can get the 1995 for GBP£11, the 2001 for GBP£40, or the most recent (2007) at some great expense off a North American site.

Crjosh

Hi there,

I am going to college to become an interpreter and had the book for an intro to interpreting class. I still have the book and would recommend your girlfriend to get the book. Even if some of the reviews of the book aren't good, I think the book is very helpful. It has a lot of great information to use and apply when signing and interpreting. I am sure you're hearing similar things and what not, but I hope what I said helps!