posts from hell

It is. Truly unfortunate for the child especially when the school brings in a certified ASL interpreter and the child doesn't understand the terp.

Deafness

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DeafRaptor

Hi, Posts from Hell. I like your avatar (thought it was hilarious). I've liked and appreciated a lot of your posts that I've read so far (although I haven't been here long). Since I haven't been here long, I haven't read all of CSign's posts, I don't know everything about her and her son's experiences, and don't know a lot about the "posting history" between the two of you. I don't want to get in the middle of a feud if there is one, but I am curious.

So far my understanding is that she is a hearing parent of a deaf child. I know how hard it can be for hearing parents as my parents are hearing parents of a deaf child (me) and they were lied to/misinformed that mainstreaming me in a hearing school was what was best for me. So unfortunately I was raised as an oral deaf, which I am now trying to correct. While some hoh people with milder hearing loss are able to adjust perfectly fine when mainstreamed, I believe that I should have been considered "deaf" (moderate-severe hearing loss that declined to moderate/severe-profound) and had interpreter at the least if not gone to a deaf school. But that is besides the point.

I believe somewhere CSign posted that at first she used SEE and is/will be transitioning to pure ASL with her son. I have no knowledge of whether her child is incapable of understanding a good certified ASL interpreter in general. But is it fair to assume that the child is the problem versus the possibility that the interpreter was actually inadequate (would another child with full knowledge/skill in ASL be able to understand that terp)? Please let me know if I am wrong here or if there is something (critical) I am missing and I will "withdraw my post". I completed a degree in Psychology because I am naturally curious about human behaviors/views and how those sometimes get "lost in translation" (even when both parties speak the same language). This post is not to inflame, but is an honest, respectful question.

posts from hell

=) I was speaking in generalities. I was making a point out that many parents are uneducated and go try things their ways which the deaf child has to correct later on in life.

it's a sad thing that we see almost everyday on this forum.

DeafRaptor

Yes, I can agree with and relate to that. for clarifying.

Mountain Man

It's also distressingly common. Many hearing parents who have a deaf child are so desperate to make their child "normal" that they're practically in denial concerning their child's condition which compels them to make a number of unfortunate choices.

GrendelQ

Are you thinking that some parents don't fight against being assigned an uncertified interpreter because they are "desperate to make their child 'normal'"? Do you mean that they don't want to rock the boat and be seen as a troublemaker and are willing to let their child suffer with substandard services?

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posts from hell

There are many many like that.

Beowulf

Good Lord.

GrendelQ

That's very sad.

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jillio

This, unfortunately, is not a unique situation. Nor is it unusual to have a child that is ASL fluent that is unable to understand the terp, because they are signing in a more English syntax and translation.

jillio

Agreed. This does happen all too frequently.

I think we also need to keep in mind that educational interpreting is a specialized area. When one is lucky enough to get a terp that is proficient in educational interpreting and is also certified, it is a rare occurance. Especially in the lower grades, one is not likely to get either. The schools are in no way mandated to hire certified terps at any level. They are only mandated to hire "qualified interpreters" as set forth in the language of the ADA. That "qualified" is open to interpretation, and can, and does include a person who graduated with a 2 year degree from a substandard program. This happens in the public schools (mainstream) more often than not.

posts from hell

I've seen some stuff that would make one shudder. This is the big part of the reason I don't teach ASL at colleges anymore.

CSign

In California Educational Interpreters must be certified, regardless of the age of student.

Educational Interpreter Regulations - Laws, Regulations, & Policies (CA Dept of Education)

jillio

I can imagine you have, as have I. Colleges, on the whole, are getting better at using certified terps because they generally go through an agency. But as far as the public school system is concerned...nope. And colleges still have a way to go in a lot of cases. A lot of it is because they simply do not recognize the difference between interpreting and transliterating.

And, as we have discussed prior, Federal law supercedes state law, so if push were to come to shove, it is the ADA wording that would be upheld. And the ADA states that "qualified intepreter" is the standard that is mandated in all interpreting situations, education included.

posts from hell

ie: using "college ASL students" as intern interpreters at local schools because they are the only places that will accept the interns.....

jillio

Absolutely. And that will even happen with colleges at times. When I first started working in a college disability office, they tried to pawn a practicum student off on a deaf student whose case I was in charge of. Needless to say, that didn't work at all. The same practicum student applied for a job at the state deaf school and was turned down because her ASL was not proficient enough. Where did she end up? Public school system.

posts from hell

I couldn't stomach that... I had to leave.

jillio

I stayed and fought for as long as I could stand it. Now I just consult and advocate....for the students, not the school.

posts from hell

How can you fail students when they do good on paper but not good in practice??? (ASL wise that is??) It's all objective....

CSign

Most states require at least a score of 3.5 on the EIPA and/or certification through RID.

State Regulations for Interpreters

Educational agencies (the public school system) is required to provide certified interpreters, not students who've graduated from their second year of an ASL class.

Mountain Man

It depends on the state. Some states require certified interpreters, but there's always the "teacher's aide" loophole.

Mountain Man

It depends on the program. Some have lower standards than others. In the interpreting program I'm currently enrolled in, students have to pass a strict minimum proficiency performance exam before entering practicum (only about 50% of students who take the exam pass), and they're teamed with a certified interpreter at the practicum site who actively teams with and monitors the student's performance.

posts from hell

Don't act so naive. I've been there, I've seen it, I've taken part of helping deaf students getting screwed in the state that REQUIRES the above.

jillio

Because what matters is not what is on paper, but what is in air.

jillio

Exactly. And that loophole is used quite often in the elementary schools. The only way a school system will have to abide by certification is if a parent or a student checks into the terps credentials and files an official complaint with the school district. That will happen...almost never. Most parents are not proficient enough in ASL themselves to even discern the difference between and ASL terp, or a terp that is signing PSE and is conceptually incorrect in sign use. Especially when we get to subjects that require some degree of specialized vocab.

jillio

There are many great programs out there, don't get me wrong. Unfortunately, there are also many horrid ones, and the general public and the public school faculty and staff don't know the difference. They are generally so ignorant regarding ASL, language acquisition, and deaf educational needs that any one who knows a handful of signs is deemed "qualified". This happens more often than not at the elementary levels. Truth be known, at this age, the school system is looking more for an aide than for a terp.

jillio

Exactly. That "requirement" only serves to provide parents with a false sense of security. They see that on paper, and automatically assume that the terp is certified and qualified just because it says they must be on paper. Let's talk about what really happens in practice, not what it says on a piece of paper.

CSign

Why would you take part in that? I would think participating in placing an unqualified terp with a student would go against your moral compass.

I'm not naive, I'm stating the facts. We have already been through the discussion that if a terp is unqualified, or does not provide the student with benefit they should be replaced. Parents and guardians are equal members of the IEP team.

posts from hell

It was called a JOB. I was nice enough to quote things so you can have the ease of viewing.

Next time, read and remember what I have to say.

Now, I am going to ask you this question: Since you, like majority of parents with a deaf child, do not know ASL well enough to judge qualifications - what position do you hold to determine facts compared to these who grew up in the system or worked in it?

GrendelQ

That's an interesting point. Are you suggesting that deaf children don't deserve qualified interpreters if their parents can't really tell the difference between qualified and unqualified levels of ASL? Maybe kids also don't deserve to visit medical doctors with actual degrees if their parents don't have enough medical knowledge to determine whether or not the doctor is really qualified and have to rely on whether or not they hold a license to know if this guy happens to be a real doctor and have a certain specialt. Teachers, too: why do we insist on qualified teachers of the deaf if we really don't have the same level of expertise as those teachers and can't determine whether they truly are qualified without checking up on those degrees.

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