Lip movement in deaf/interpreters

Waxy · 08-21-2009, 11:11 AM

There are a lot of controversial issues when an interpreter does their job here, in argentina.
I'm reading here, it seems some issues are similar (wich makes me think they're issues reagarding all sign languages)

One specifically, is lip movement.

Some interpreters say that we shoudlnt move our lips, that "deaf dont move their lips"... then again, i asked always to deaf what to do in orther to make them feel comfortable with my signing, and most either they dont care, or its better to move.
At aslpro, in the FAQ, we found this (i quote)

Quote:

I notice that most of your signs do not include facial expressions or lip movement as they would be in normal ASL conversation. I was wondering, “Why?” There is a two-fold response to this answer.

First, some facial expressions form the initial sound of the word being signed. This would allow students to simply lip-read rather than concentrate on the sign itself. As our quizzes pull from our Sign Database, we purposefully omitted this type of facial expression.

Secondly, we are aware that some of our signs lack necessary facial expressions (different from those explained above). Each of our valued Sign Models are different and have different levels of facial expressions. As we continually improve the site, we are aware of the need to improve facial expressiveness.

Please keep in mind that ASLPro.com should not be used as a stand alone tool to teach American Sign Language. ASLPro.com is designed for use by classroom teachers as a facilitating resource under qualified teacher supervision. We are mainly a reference tool, and our signs will be similar to signs found in most ASL dictionary resources in book form, which also omit facial expressions and lip movements.

Again, we want to thank you for visiting ASLPro.com, and for keeping these site limitations in mind while viewing the content.

Quote:

First, some facial expressions form the initial sound of the word being signed. This would allow students to simply lip-read rather than concentrate on the sign itself. As our quizzes pull from our Sign Database, we purposefully omitted this type of facial expression.

This leads me to think that, obviously, you ppl there move their lips, or at least, some do (otherwise wouldnt be reason for the question)
What do you think about this? how the american deaf signs? do you move your lips? it depends?

For instance. For some, lip moving is associated to do it to basic, or non educated deaf.

Im very interested in your opinions regarding this matter.

souggy · 08-21-2009, 11:22 AM

I don't move my lips while signing because often I can't see other people's lips as a Deaf-blind-- so my behaviour is copied from what I can see from other people's. However I do prefer to have an interpreter who can enunciate while they sign. Why? Often times I can't see the speaker's lips, but I can read the interpreter's and having complete access to sign language and lip-reading is necessary for me as a person with low vision to make up for the information I don't pick up what a fully sighted person would.

I am one of the few people where reading, hearing the language, seeing ASL/PSE and lip-reading is necessary for me to get the full access to information.

Although the impression I get from the interpreter services up here is that it is done on a client-to-client basis.

Waxy · 08-21-2009, 11:26 AM

thanks souggy!

Some ppl say here, that an interpreter gets closer to be "deaf" if we don't move our lips...
Some, for instace, enunciate half of the word.
In english is different, becaus you have usually short words, but in spanish, for instance would be-

english: person
spanish: persona
interpreter enunciate: perso

i find it weird

souggy · 08-21-2009, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waxy

thanks souggy!

Some ppl say here, that an interpreter gets closer to be "deaf" if we don't move our lips...
Some, for instace, enunciate half of the word.
In english is different, becaus you have usually short words, but in spanish, for instance would be-

english: person
spanish: persona
interpreter enunciate: perso

i find it weird

I have the same observation as well. Sorry for the history lesson, but it's to outline what people do with certain words: in term of words that is rooted in Anglo-Saxon and ancient Norse (everyday words or "short words" you have described), yes, they do tend to enunciate the full word. It's a different matter when it come to Latin and Greek-rooted words (religious, philosophy, science and legal) since they sometimes only enunciate the first few phonetics. Words that are of Arabic (tends to be mathematics and astronomy) and French (cooking, legal, government) origins either get half-arsed or fully enunciated.

Waxy · 08-21-2009, 11:43 AM

nice...
more opinions please!

Etoile · 08-22-2009, 05:57 PM

I'm not sure what you're asking about. Are you talking about mouth morphemes, which are a natural part of ASL, or are you talking about mouthing words for people who prefer to lipread in addition to viewing the signs?

Waxy · 08-24-2009, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etoile

I'm not sure what you're asking about. Are you talking about mouth morphemes, which are a natural part of ASL, or are you talking about mouthing words for people who prefer to lipread in addition to viewing the signs?

Quote:

Are you talking about mouth morphemes, which are a natural part of ASL

that's an interesting question, since is the first time i've read about this.
im not sure ive got them in LSA.

basically we have 2 positions here.
the deaf that thinks is not "from deaf" to move the lips, and the deaf that thinks is usefull for interpreters, to move our lips.

now.
im ive noticed that sometimes they do move thy lips, and sometimes they dont.
im still not sure what's NATURAL for the deaf...(and still not sure how really want the deaf to interpreters to become "as closer to be deaf as possible"...

regarding the "mouth morphemes in ASL", pls tell me about so i tell you if im talking about it or not.

Reba · 08-24-2009, 05:57 PM

Mouth morphemes and mouthing words are two totally separate behaviors.

Mouth morphemes are some of the non-manual markers that are used in ASL grammar. Other non-manual markers are head tilts, shoulder raises, and eyebrow movements. They are used mostly as modifiers to the signs that are being used. They are not the English words that are being interpreted.

When people speak (silently or audibly) the English words that are being interpreted while signing at the same time, that is commonly called "mouthing". Not the same as using mouth morphemes.

Signers who are more strongly ASL on the sign language continuum tend to use more mouth morphemes and fewer mouthed words. Signers who are more English and oral tend to use fewer morphemes and more mouthed words.

In America, if a deaf person is signing ASL, you will notice lots of non-manual markers (including the mouth morphemes) being used, in addition to "expressiveness". Rarely will you see a tight-lipped ASL signer.

In America, if a deaf person is signing PSE or English manual codes, you will notice few (if any) non-manual markers but many "mouthed" or spoken words used simultaneously with the signs.

That's not to say someone will be 100% one way or the other. It depends on the individual's preference.

There are books, videos, and DVDs about mouth morphemes and ASL grammar.

YouTube - ASL - NMS: "CHA" "MMM" "OOO"

You Tube

Chuck · 08-24-2009, 07:23 PM

Some deaf kids can mouth their words. I prefer if my interpreters also mouthed words. Kind of appalling it's a controversy in the first place. What a bunch of touchy feely people. Should come down to preference of the people the interpreter is working for. If they want him/her to mouth words or not. Of course there might be diversity in the audience so people that like it, should get preference, since it is about understanding better. Deaf people can just pay attention to the hand signs, ignore the lips. Does your interpreter have full lips and is voluptous, hard to focus? If so, pass me along her number.

rockin'robin · 08-24-2009, 08:10 PM

Signing, along with moving the lips/mouth, is a must for me.....As I read lips and watch the signs at the same time....

I cannot understand anyone who signs without using facial expressions/mouthing the words, etc.

Cheri · 08-24-2009, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockin'robin

Signing, along with moving the lips/mouth, is a must for me.....As I read lips and watch the signs at the same time....

I cannot understand anyone who signs without using facial expressions/mouthing the words, etc.

I'm exactly the same way, it's a must for me too, because there are many signers that sign differently and it's easier for me to read their lips/mouth and signs the same time to get the understanding of what they are really telling me.

Waxy · 08-25-2009, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Mouth morphemes and mouthing words are two totally separate behaviors.

Mouth morphemes are some of the non-manual markers that are used in ASL grammar. Other non-manual markers are head tilts, shoulder raises, and eyebrow movements. They are used mostly as modifiers to the signs that are being used. They are not the English words that are being interpreted.

When people speak (silently or audibly) the English words that are being interpreted while signing at the same time, that is commonly called "mouthing". Not the same as using mouth morphemes.

Signers who are more strongly ASL on the sign language continuum tend to use more mouth morphemes and fewer mouthed words. Signers who are more English and oral tend to use fewer morphemes and more mouthed words.

In America, if a deaf person is signing ASL, you will notice lots of non-manual markers (including the mouth morphemes) being used, in addition to "expressiveness". Rarely will you see a tight-lipped ASL signer.

In America, if a deaf person is signing PSE or English manual codes, you will notice few (if any) non-manual markers but many "mouthed" or spoken words used simultaneously with the signs.

That's not to say someone will be 100% one way or the other. It depends on the individual's preference.

There are books, videos, and DVDs about mouth morphemes and ASL grammar.

this is fantastic, and revealing. i'll investigate more about this.
thanks!

Waxy · 08-25-2009, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck

Some deaf kids can mouth their words. I prefer if my interpreters also mouthed words. Kind of appalling it's a controversy in the first place. What a bunch of touchy feely people. Should come down to preference of the people the interpreter is working for. If they want him/her to mouth words or not. Of course there might be diversity in the audience so people that like it, should get preference, since it is about understanding better. Deaf people can just pay attention to the hand signs, ignore the lips. Does your interpreter have full lips and is voluptous, hard to focus? If so, pass me along her number.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockin'robin

Signing, along with moving the lips/mouth, is a must for me.....As I read lips and watch the signs at the same time....

I cannot understand anyone who signs without using facial expressions/mouthing the words, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

I'm exactly the same way, it's a must for me too, because there are many signers that sign differently and it's easier for me to read their lips/mouth and signs the same time to get the understanding of what they are really telling me.

ho-key...
So.
To sumarize.
Deaf (in America, at least) perform in a natural way some kind of movement, but it's specific and natural.

We, as intepreters, should learn this, (in order to do it naturally) BUT also, talk to the Deaf we're communicating with, and get an understanding on what's their prefference.

I'll investigate if this "Mouth morphemes" exists here.

LuciaDisturbed · 08-26-2009, 03:37 AM

I am Deaf and never learned to speak but for some reason I still find that I prefer for all interpreters to mouth words simultaneously while interpreting so that if there is a same sign that is used for different words/etc I can tell which word it is by looking at their lips and seeing the obvious lip shapes so there are less misunderstanding that way. I've had a history of misunderstanding deaf people who never move their lips and sign only...and then I end up getting the totally wrong idea and not realize that the person I was speaking to meant something entirely else...it creates big-time misunderstandings and a lot of confusion. When I have an interpreter for like a doc's appt I ask the interpreter to please mouth everything while signing, it helps me understand things clearly. So, yes, I lipread while people sign....I cannot lipread on my own without signs, but with signing I can lipread somewhat well because I catch the obvious parts of the words. But if the person doesn't sign at all or doesn't mouth words at all I'm lost. I like for BOTH to be used together.

Waxy · 08-26-2009, 07:49 AM

Highly apreciated your thoughts...

Waxy · 08-27-2009, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Mouth morphemes and mouthing words are two totally separate behaviors.

Mouth morphemes are some of the non-manual markers that are used in ASL grammar. Other non-manual markers are head tilts, shoulder raises, and eyebrow movements. They are used mostly as modifiers to the signs that are being used. They are not the English words that are being interpreted.

When people speak (silently or audibly) the English words that are being interpreted while signing at the same time, that is commonly called "mouthing". Not the same as using mouth morphemes.

Signers who are more strongly ASL on the sign language continuum tend to use more mouth morphemes and fewer mouthed words. Signers who are more English and oral tend to use fewer morphemes and more mouthed words.

In America, if a deaf person is signing ASL, you will notice lots of non-manual markers (including the mouth morphemes) being used, in addition to "expressiveness". Rarely will you see a tight-lipped ASL signer.

In America, if a deaf person is signing PSE or English manual codes, you will notice few (if any) non-manual markers but many "mouthed" or spoken words used simultaneously with the signs.

That's not to say someone will be 100% one way or the other. It depends on the individual's preference.

There are books, videos, and DVDs about mouth morphemes and ASL grammar.

Ok
Investigated about this, and argentinean Deaf got them.
Although, LSA isnt that studied as ASL (ASL is the most studied signed language ever)

Thanks for the info. Ive learned a lot.

08-21-2009, 11:22 AM	#2 (permalink)
souggy Ace Attorney Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Victoria, BC Posts: 2,403	I don't move my lips while signing because often I can't see other people's lips as a Deaf-blind-- so my behaviour is copied from what I can see from other people's. However I do prefer to have an interpreter who can enunciate while they sign. Why? Often times I can't see the speaker's lips, but I can read the interpreter's and having complete access to sign language and lip-reading is necessary for me as a person with low vision to make up for the information I don't pick up what a fully sighted person would. I am one of the few people where reading, hearing the language, seeing ASL/PSE and lip-reading is necessary for me to get the full access to information. Although the impression I get from the interpreter services up here is that it is done on a client-to-client basis. __________________ Souggy's Blog Warning! Contains skewed comments & inane ramblings. May cause spontaneous human combustion

08-21-2009, 11:26 AM	#3 (permalink)
Waxy Slacker Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Champs-Élysées Posts: 74	thanks souggy! Some ppl say here, that an interpreter gets closer to be "deaf" if we don't move our lips... Some, for instace, enunciate half of the word. In english is different, becaus you have usually short words, but in spanish, for instance would be- english: person spanish: persona interpreter enunciate: perso i find it weird __________________ Better be hated than forgotten.

08-21-2009, 11:43 AM	#5 (permalink)
Waxy Slacker Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Champs-Élysées Posts: 74	nice... more opinions please! __________________ Better be hated than forgotten.

08-22-2009, 05:57 PM	#6 (permalink)
Etoile legally married :) Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Washington DC Posts: 1,091	I'm not sure what you're asking about. Are you talking about mouth morphemes, which are a natural part of ASL, or are you talking about mouthing words for people who prefer to lipread in addition to viewing the signs? __________________ "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty." -Gandhi

08-24-2009, 07:23 PM	#9 (permalink)
Chuck God of War Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: California Posts: 134	Some deaf kids can mouth their words. I prefer if my interpreters also mouthed words. Kind of appalling it's a controversy in the first place. What a bunch of touchy feely people. Should come down to preference of the people the interpreter is working for. If they want him/her to mouth words or not. Of course there might be diversity in the audience so people that like it, should get preference, since it is about understanding better. Deaf people can just pay attention to the hand signs, ignore the lips. Does your interpreter have full lips and is voluptous, hard to focus? If so, pass me along her number. __________________

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08-24-2009, 08:10 PM	#10 (permalink)
rockin'robin Registered User Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Jacksonville, Florida Posts: 2,787	Signing, along with moving the lips/mouth, is a must for me.....As I read lips and watch the signs at the same time.... I cannot understand anyone who signs without using facial expressions/mouthing the words, etc.

08-26-2009, 03:37 AM	#14 (permalink)
LuciaDisturbed Amateur Psychiatrist Join Date: May 2006 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 6,659	I am Deaf and never learned to speak but for some reason I still find that I prefer for all interpreters to mouth words simultaneously while interpreting so that if there is a same sign that is used for different words/etc I can tell which word it is by looking at their lips and seeing the obvious lip shapes so there are less misunderstanding that way. I've had a history of misunderstanding deaf people who never move their lips and sign only...and then I end up getting the totally wrong idea and not realize that the person I was speaking to meant something entirely else...it creates big-time misunderstandings and a lot of confusion. When I have an interpreter for like a doc's appt I ask the interpreter to please mouth everything while signing, it helps me understand things clearly. So, yes, I lipread while people sign....I cannot lipread on my own without signs, but with signing I can lipread somewhat well because I catch the obvious parts of the words. But if the person doesn't sign at all or doesn't mouth words at all I'm lost. I like for BOTH to be used together. __________________ "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - Philosopher George Santayana. Implanted left ear 10/11/06, activated 10/16/06 - Nucleus Freedom My own CI experience, my views on CI and ASL and Deaf Culture and Society DeviantArt

08-26-2009, 07:49 AM	#15 (permalink)
Waxy Slacker Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Champs-Élysées Posts: 74	Highly apreciated your thoughts... __________________ Better be hated than forgotten.

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