Terps - Page 2

jillio · 02-27-2008, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AquaBlue

That's what I am saying. So what is the problem??

There is a difference in the implied meaning of "being an aid to" and "facillitating communication between". The first implies that it is only the deaf that need assistance, when in truth, the hearing need the same assistance for comprehension. The first implies a paternalistic attitude that the deaf have fought against for centuries. An interpreter that phrases in the first way simply will not find much acceptance in the deaf community because of the implicit meaning of the wording.

The suggestions were not intended as criticism the way I read them, but simply as a suggestion for an interpreter in training. Part of terp training is learning to be culturally sensitive to the needs of the population that will be employing you for your services.

AquaBlue · 02-27-2008, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillio

There is a difference in the implied meaning of "being an aid to" and "facillitating communication between". The first implies that it is only the deaf that need assistance, when in truth, the hearing need the same assistance for comprehension. The first implies a paternalistic attitude that the deaf have fought against for centuries. An interpreter that phrases in the first way simply will not find much acceptance in the deaf community because of the implicit meaning of the wording.

The suggestions were not intended as criticism the way I read them, but simply as a suggestion for an interpreter in training. Part of terp training is learning to be culturally sensitive to the needs of the population that will be employing you for your services.

Thank you jillio. I now understand and have adjusted my thinking. All this is part of learning; also it is best to learn such things prior to entering the Deaf world for the first time. Thanks again!

AquaBlue · 02-27-2008, 09:56 AM

I have an ASL grammar question regarding rules for phrase structure. I extracted these rules from an ASL book I study. Do you, as Terp vets, agree with these rules?

Rule #1.
Topic/Comment.
In a simple sentence/comment, the topic described first followed by the comment.

Rule #2.
Tense with Time Adverbs.
The time adverb is placed at the beginning or near the beginning of the sentence.

Rule #3.
Simple Yes/No Questions.
In short sentences that ask a yes/no question, the order of the signs is variable.

Rule #4.
Long Yes/No Questions.
Long yes/no questions use a topic/question format.

Rule #5.
Information Seeking Questions.
Simple questions that ask for information have variable sentence structures and rely on nonmanual signals to distinguish them from declarative sentences.

Rule #6.
Pronominalization.
Pronouns are indicated by pointing to either (a) a person or thing tha is present or (b) a place in the signing space that is used as a referent point for a person or thing. Pointing is mostly done with the index finger, but eye gazing and other handshapes are sometimes used.

Rule #7.
Rhetorical Questions.
In a rhetorical question, the signer asks a question and then answers it.

Rule #8.
Ordering of Simple Questions.
In simple sentences the verb can be placed before or after the object of the sentence.

Rule #9.
Conditional Sentences.
In a conditional sentences, first the condition is described then the outcome of this condition id described.

Rule #10.
Negation.
You can negate a thought by placing a negative sign before the verb or by first describing a topic and then signing the appropriate negative sign or giving a negative head shake.

Thanks for your input!

jillio · 02-27-2008, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AquaBlue

Thank you jillio. I now understand and have adjusted my thinking. All this is part of learning; also it is best to learn such things prior to entering the Deaf world for the first time. Thanks again!

You are quite welcome. I don't mind explaining at all.

Ariakkas · 02-27-2008, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Are Deaf folks excessively sensitive to the assessments of the hearing folks?

this question made me giggle.....its just like your previous question. You are, without intending to, looking down on Deaf people, by assuming that they are waiting for approval from hearing people. they don't need the approval of the hearing commmunity.

its your job to navigate through their community if you desire, and you'll never do that until you stop seeing them as disabled.

do black people that get offended by the N word do so because they base their worth on what white people think? no, its because its culturally wrong to do that.

if you tell someone they look fat, are they offended because they dont want you to think they are really fat? no...its because its culturally wrong to do so.

one last peice of advice, you'd do well, as we all would....to stop seeing people as a label. labels pigeonhole us into a group or classification that is almost never right.
for every person you terp for that is knowledgable for Deaf culture norms, you will terp for someone who has never been involved with the Deaf community, and you have to be sensitive to both situations to be an effective terp. learning as much as possible is the key, save the judgements for later

Etoile · 02-27-2008, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AquaBlue

Understood Ariakkas. I'll adjust my thinking. A question for you Ariakkas: Are Deaf folks excessively sensitive to the assessments of the hearing folks?

I'm trying to understand your question here. Are you asking if Deaf people are sensitive when hearing people criticize them? Don't you find that question itself insensitive on your part? I must be really confused because I don't get why you would ask this.

Etoile · 02-27-2008, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AquaBlue

Five freaking years!!!!!!!!!!!??????????

Wow! I am aiming at three years fluency. I do work hard everyday on my new language.

Five years is not that long. It's about average for learning any language to fluency. You will be very good within three years, but you will not be fluent. And as others have said, you must socialize with deaf people. There is no "number of words" and "level of grammar" that you need...you just have to start going as soon as possible. Deaf people are used to communicating with non-signers, they've done it all their lives, so don't worry about not knowing a sign or something. And unlike spoken foreign languages, you can always fall back on fingerspelling. You can't depend on people to find things for you to attend...just because the one "interpreter" provided is too far away from you, I'm sure there are PLENTY in Miami you can go to. Just Google for "miami deaf" and you'll find organizations, schools, services, events, etc.

PS for "interpreter": I put your name in quotes because otherwise it looks like I'm just saying the word interpreter, and I didn't want to confuse things. Can I capitalize your name? Using Interpreter looks different enough to have it be a name rather than a word.

AquaBlue · 02-27-2008, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by interpreter

I'm an interpreter, too. I went to an ITP, but I got my training through the school of hard knocks. You need to have a thick skin.

Etoile, do not look at what I said in the negative. interpreter said that a hearie needs to have thick skin. That automatically tells me that the Deaf are easily angered by what seems to be, as you said, insensitive, comments/actions of the hearing people. So are they (Deaf folks) sensitive to what hearies say or do about them?

Understand?

I never meant anything bad by it...unless, of course, this is another one of those needed adjustments on my part (I think not in this case).

AquaBlue · 02-27-2008, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etoile

Five years is not that long. It's about average for learning any language to fluency. You will be very good within three years, but you will not be fluent. And as others have said, you must socialize with deaf people. There is no "number of words" and "level of grammar" that you need...you just have to start going as soon as possible. Deaf people are used to communicating with non-signers, they've done it all their lives, so don't worry about not knowing a sign or something. And unlike spoken foreign languages, you can always fall back on fingerspelling. You can't depend on people to find things for you to attend...just because the one "interpreter" provided is too far away from you, I'm sure there are PLENTY in Miami you can go to. Just Google for "miami deaf" and you'll find organizations, schools, services, events, etc.

I will attempt to visit the North Miami Beach gathering if I can. Now as for the online search comment, I can't find a single one near me and I am in the heart of the city...or at least of the burbs. All online searches have come up dry.Thank you.

AquaBlue · 02-27-2008, 11:56 AM

Is this fingerspelling at normal Deaf rate or is she showing off her lightning fast motions?

AquaBlue · 02-27-2008, 12:05 PM

Watching videos of experienced signers on YouTube I can now see why it would takes five years to achieve fluency. My goodness. I am a million miles away from that perfection.

Anij · 02-27-2008, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AquaBlue

Is this fingerspelling at normal Deaf rate or is she showing off her lightning fast motions?

Seems about average for fluent fingerspelling to me (my interpreters fingerspell about that speed to me in class ... and I back)

P.S. It's not a "Deaf Rate" ... I know that there are sites that call it that

... I really wish they'd call it "Fluent Rate"

Tousi · 02-27-2008, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AquaBlue

Is this fingerspelling at normal Deaf rate or is she showing off her lightning fast motions?

That's a "normal" rate.

jillio · 02-27-2008, 01:12 PM

Yep, looks pretty typical to me.

interpreter · 02-27-2008, 01:31 PM

hee...no I don't mind you putting my screen name in quotes. Hey, did you sign up for Blapnet??

Etoile · 02-27-2008, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AquaBlue

Etoile, do not look at what I said in the negative. interpreter said that a hearie needs to have thick skin. That automatically tells me that the Deaf are easily angered by what seems to be, as you said, insensitive, comments/actions of the hearing people. So are they (Deaf folks) sensitive to what hearies say or do about them?

Understand?

I never meant anything bad by it...unless, of course, this is another one of those needed adjustments on my part (I think not in this case).

I still don't understand your question, I'm afraid. It still seems insensitive, or at least misinformed, to me. But I think I see where you're coming from, anyway.

I think you misunderstood the statement. The "school of hard knocks" comment wasn't meant to refer to how deaf people treat hearing people or vice versa. It was about how consumers of interpreting services treat interpreters. This applies to deaf and hearing consumers alike. It's a customer service oriented profession, and you can't learn in a classroom how to serve every individual customer. Yes, deaf people sometimes criticize interpreters, but it's based on their skills as an interpreter, not based on being a hearing person.

I think the key flaw in your question is that there is no way to answer it in general terms. Yes, some deaf people are sensitive. So are some hearing people. So are some blind people, or black people, or disabled people, or gay people. It's important to treat deaf people like you would treat any other person, with courtesy and respect.

Does the place you are taking ASL also offer Deaf Studies classes, or deaf culture 101, or anything like that? It sounds like you would benefit from them. You might want to pick up the book "For Hearing People Only" from Amazon or something - it's a good start for understanding deaf culture. Also, don't be shy about asking your ASL teacher where you can socialize with deaf people!

Etoile · 02-27-2008, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by interpreter

hee...no I don't mind you putting my screen name in quotes. Hey, did you sign up for Blapnet??

Yes I did! I'm not active yet but I'm lurking around. I already told a fellow terp friend about it and I will tell more. It looks cool!

Etoile · 02-27-2008, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tousi

That's a "normal" rate.

I agree, it's normal, but it's also designed for fingerspelling practice. In real life, many people omit letters, half-form letters, blend letters, etc. If people know you are learning, they won't do this to you. So it's important to be honest about your skill level so you don't end up stuck!

Etoile · 02-27-2008, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariakkas

this question made me giggle.....its just like your previous question. You are, without intending to, looking down on Deaf people, by assuming that they are waiting for approval from hearing people. they don't need the approval of the hearing commmunity.

its your job to navigate through their community if you desire, and you'll never do that until you stop seeing them as disabled.

do black people that get offended by the N word do so because they base their worth on what white people think? no, its because its culturally wrong to do that.

if you tell someone they look fat, are they offended because they dont want you to think they are really fat? no...its because its culturally wrong to do so.

one last peice of advice, you'd do well, as we all would....to stop seeing people as a label. labels pigeonhole us into a group or classification that is almost never right.
for every person you terp for that is knowledgable for Deaf culture norms, you will terp for someone who has never been involved with the Deaf community, and you have to be sensitive to both situations to be an effective terp. learning as much as possible is the key, save the judgements for later

Ariakkas, I completely missed this post before, and I just wanted to say it is awesome. You made it really clear, whereas I was kind of confusing.

added: wow, I talk to myself a lot, that's four posts in a row haha!

AquaBlue · 02-27-2008, 02:47 PM

Etoile< I'm not taking any classes yet. I will borrow a Deaf Culture book from the library.

Tousi · 02-27-2008, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariakkas

this question made me giggle.....its just like your previous question. You are, without intending to, looking down on Deaf people, by assuming that they are waiting for approval from hearing people. they don't need the approval of the hearing commmunity.

its your job to navigate through their community if you desire, and you'll never do that until you stop seeing them as disabled.

do black people that get offended by the N word do so because they base their worth on what white people think? no, its because its culturally wrong to do that.

if you tell someone they look fat, are they offended because they dont want you to think they are really fat? no...its because its culturally wrong to do so.

one last peice of advice, you'd do well, as we all would....to stop seeing people as a label. labels pigeonhole us into a group or classification that is almost never right.
for every person you terp for that is knowledgable for Deaf culture norms, you will terp for someone who has never been involved with the Deaf community, and you have to be sensitive to both situations to be an effective terp. learning as much as possible is the key, save the judgements for later

Wow, I, too, missed this! Good job, Arrikas! I had a fleeting image of "plantation mentality" when I read what you had to say. And just as fleetingly, it was gone because, as you say, he's not intending to project this......I don't think.....

Etoile · 02-27-2008, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AquaBlue

Etoile< I'm not taking any classes yet. I will borrow a Deaf Culture book from the library.

You really should take classes. Because ASL is a visual language, you can't learn it from a book; DVD's are more helpful but you really need feedback from a teacher. If you're looking to pinch pennies, try the local parks & rec department or whatever - they will probably have a beginning class that's affordable.

Also, with regard to those rules you had posted earlier, what book are they from? I'm not confident saying any of them are accurate, because they sound a little weird to me.

I don't know about your library, but NONE of the libraries I have ever been to have had good enough deaf sections. I check every time I go to a new library and they are always lacking. There's often a few biographies, but no really good books for beginners. For Hearing People Only is excellent for people who know nothing about deaf culture. It's $36 from the official website but you can get it for $17 used from Amazon, $16 used from Half.com, or worst-case scenario get the 1993 edition for 75 cents on Half.com or 65 cents from Amazon. That's the one I have and it's pretty good; I don't know what's in the new one.

AquaBlue · 02-27-2008, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etoile

You really should take classes. Because ASL is a visual language, you can't learn it from a book; DVD's are more helpful but you really need feedback from a teacher.

Also, with regard to those rules you had posted earlier, what book are they from? I'm not confident saying any of them are accurate, because they sound a little weird to me.

I did take classes about five years back In fact I was the ace of the class of about twenty-something students. I was the best signer of the group; and I was the only one to make it to ASL 3- the advance class. I stopped because of jerk deaf teacher. Stupid I know....

This is the book:

I registered for for an ASL class this Spring at a local college.

Ariakkas · 02-27-2008, 06:06 PM

your going about it the right way. i know it prolly feels like we are shooting down everything you say and telling you that you are doing and thinking everything wrong...but we all were at the same place at one point or another. and its better to learn from here as much as you can to augment what you are learning out there.

AquaBlue · 02-27-2008, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariakkas

your going about it the right way. i know it prolly feels like we are shooting down everything you say and telling you that you are doing and thinking everything wrong...

Oh no not in the least. I very much appreciate your words trust me. As long as you all are posting the truth you have my full attention. Please keep posting your advice- they are of great value to me.

AquaBlue · 02-27-2008, 09:09 PM

One of the skills I need to work on the most is fingerspelling. Dr. Bill Vicars' American Sign Language (ASL) Fingerspelling Tool, which I call My Frustration Site, is where I go to practice this most difficult skill. I also use a metronome, in the same way one practices musical scales, to slowly build up speed and keep the movements clear and clean.

Are there other (better and more effective) ways, besides signing with Deaf people, that I can try to improve my fingerspelling?

02-27-2008, 09:56 AM	#33 (permalink)
AquaBlue ASL Student Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 1,324	I have an ASL grammar question regarding rules for phrase structure. I extracted these rules from an ASL book I study. Do you, as Terp vets, agree with these rules? Rule #1. Topic/Comment. In a simple sentence/comment, the topic described first followed by the comment. Rule #2. Tense with Time Adverbs. The time adverb is placed at the beginning or near the beginning of the sentence. Rule #3. Simple Yes/No Questions. In short sentences that ask a yes/no question, the order of the signs is variable. Rule #4. Long Yes/No Questions. Long yes/no questions use a topic/question format. Rule #5. Information Seeking Questions. Simple questions that ask for information have variable sentence structures and rely on nonmanual signals to distinguish them from declarative sentences. Rule #6. Pronominalization. Pronouns are indicated by pointing to either (a) a person or thing tha is present or (b) a place in the signing space that is used as a referent point for a person or thing. Pointing is mostly done with the index finger, but eye gazing and other handshapes are sometimes used. Rule #7. Rhetorical Questions. In a rhetorical question, the signer asks a question and then answers it. Rule #8. Ordering of Simple Questions. In simple sentences the verb can be placed before or after the object of the sentence. Rule #9. Conditional Sentences. In a conditional sentences, first the condition is described then the outcome of this condition id described. Rule #10. Negation. You can negate a thought by placing a negative sign before the verb or by first describing a topic and then signing the appropriate negative sign or giving a negative head shake. Thanks for your input! __________________ Currently Reading: Out Stealing Horses by Per Petterson My Book List My Bipolar Page

02-27-2008, 11:56 AM	#40 (permalink)
AquaBlue ASL Student Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 1,324	Is this fingerspelling at normal Deaf rate or is she showing off her lightning fast motions? __________________ Currently Reading: Out Stealing Horses by Per Petterson My Book List My Bipolar Page

02-27-2008, 12:05 PM	#41 (permalink)
AquaBlue ASL Student Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 1,324	Watching videos of experienced signers on YouTube I can now see why it would takes five years to achieve fluency. My goodness. I am a million miles away from that perfection. __________________ Currently Reading: Out Stealing Horses by Per Petterson My Book List My Bipolar Page

02-27-2008, 02:47 PM	#50 (permalink)
AquaBlue ASL Student Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 1,324	Etoile< I'm not taking any classes yet. I will borrow a Deaf Culture book from the library. __________________ Currently Reading: Out Stealing Horses by Per Petterson My Book List My Bipolar Page

02-27-2008, 09:09 PM	#56 (permalink)
AquaBlue ASL Student Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 1,324	One of the skills I need to work on the most is fingerspelling. Dr. Bill Vicars' American Sign Language (ASL) Fingerspelling Tool, which I call My Frustration Site, is where I go to practice this most difficult skill. I also use a metronome, in the same way one practices musical scales, to slowly build up speed and keep the movements clear and clean. Are there other (better and more effective) ways, besides signing with Deaf people, that I can try to improve my fingerspelling? __________________ Currently Reading: Out Stealing Horses by Per Petterson My Book List My Bipolar Page

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02-27-2008, 01:12 PM	#44 (permalink)
jillio Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 17,027	Yep, looks pretty typical to me.

02-27-2008, 01:31 PM	#45 (permalink)
interpreter CI & CT Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 31	hee...no I don't mind you putting my screen name in quotes. Hey, did you sign up for Blapnet??

02-27-2008, 06:06 PM	#54 (permalink)
Ariakkas Registered User Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 237	your going about it the right way. i know it prolly feels like we are shooting down everything you say and telling you that you are doing and thinking everything wrong...but we all were at the same place at one point or another. and its better to learn from here as much as you can to augment what you are learning out there.