Anij

Just remember (and I think this is what many of us are trying to caution you of) - "memorization" is different than learning. By which I mean you can memorize the sign, but that isn't the same as learning it.

You mentioned music before - memorising is like knowing what notes make up a major scale, learning is when you stop thinking of the notes and you begin to know the progression internally - when it stops being about the notes, and starts being about the sound. You're then able to reproduce a major scale in any key on any instrument... not because you know the right fingering, or position, but because you have an ingrained understanding of the sound shape that your working to achieve. It becomes a part of you. Just like if you're bilingual you don't transpose the words - when I speak French for example, I think in French, when I speak English, I think in English, when I sign ASL, I think in ASL - it's this immersion into the language which is important. By contrast I use Greek and Latin in class all the time, but single words, or short phrases in isolation - I don't think in those languages - I've merely memorised aspects of the languages which I'm able to reproduce as needed - this is the difference we're trying to communicate to you. Learn ASL, don't just memorise it.

I know you're really liking the speed that you're able to add new words - but this isn't a race... if you take the time to understand the signs, how they relate to each other, you'll start to be able to anticipate the meaning of signs you might not already know - and that's an important skill - because there will be times when you will not only have to guess a sign (and it's not really something that has to be clarified) - but there's also times when "internally in a classroom interpreting session" that you and the ASLer(s) ( I say this because not all people who use ASL are hh/d _ that you're interpreting for will have to create "temporary signs" for terms etc ... and having an internal grasp of the language will help you do this more authentically.

example - I needed a sign for Ekklesia ... it comes up constantly in one of my classes - we made is and "e" handshape initialised version of "CHURCH" because in the context of the class that was the most authentic ASL for how my teacher was using the term.... there are at least 3 other signs we discussed- but we chose that as "authentic" ... how did we get there, can you get there with pure memorization ? (for the record I picked an "easy on" as an example)

I realise I've chattered on and on ... but we really do want to help ensure you're learning in the most "natural acquisition" way possible. There is no midterm ... this is a language you're planning on using for the rest of your life ... make sure that you're keeping that paramount.

Deafness

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Anij

(separate post, separate topic)

AB,
have you seen, are you familiar with ABE stories, and Handshape stories ?? If you're looking for practice this would be something that would be helpful.

I love playing handshape games ... you know the ones where you start with a handshape ( letter, or marker etc) and go around the circle - everyone thinks up a sign with that handshape ... until someone gets stuck .. then you carry on with the next shape/letter etc !!! great fun !!

AquaBlue

But Anij, I will not get to that point in a good while. You’re talking about ASL maturity. Only after I have been within the Deaf community, will I start to think in ASL. Right now I am a baby learning how to walk. I will not be able to play that guitar with feeling (once it becomes a part of me) for some time. Wouldn't you agree that remembering the signs is the first step toward learning? Recall is not learning, but it surely is a part of it. One can't exist without the other. You first need to remember before it is etched into your brain (learning).

How do I gain "an internal grasp of the language" Anij? Tell me precisely what I have to do please? It seems to me that getting to that point of understanding takes experience...something I do not have now. So in what way can I obtain it now??

For most of what you're saying, I understand. But I can only see the surface of meaning on other points- I do not have a good grasp of it yet. I see where you are coming from, but it is still foggy.

So having a deeper awareness of ASL (looking under the hood- like computer programming) effects your expression of the language and transmits your ideas/feelings naturally without any thinking whatsoever. ASL becomes a part of you, right Anij? I see that mastery ahead of me: but not now my friend. Wouldn't I get there regardless of my study techniques now? I would first need to learn how to position my hands on the guitar before I perform on stage. What you are saying develops in time. Am I missing something here Anij?

Oh and by the way…thanks a million for helping me Anij. You must know how much I value all your words; and that every word does not fall on deaf ears: Excuse the pun.

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AquaBlue

No, I am not aware of such activity. It's news to me. Tell me more.

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AquaBlue

These are all the handshapes I know now:

• Open
• Bent
• Curved 5
• Flattened C
• Bent V
• Modified X
• Flattened O
• Modified C
• Curved 3

If there are more, please post them. Thanks!

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Anij

ok - back to the music analogies:

I used to teach private lessons, and clinics (a long time ago) ... (snd yes, I'm hh/D)
When teaching beginners my instructions were always the same ...
I'd send them home with a series of notes to learn how to play - usually a section of the chromatic scale - but my instructions were this:

know the fingering of the note - and then play the note... but make it sing !
focus on making that single note, that single sound the most beautiful sound you can. And only then move on to the next.

This of course was just part of their assignment for the week ... but they left knowing that if the only thing they accomplished was one note that sang - one note that sounded beautiful - that they'd captured "it" and they should be proud - because in learning how to make that single note sound beautiful they'd also consciously and unconsciously learned a number of very intricate aspects of the language of music and playing that instrument.

I'm not sure if it makes more sense that way ... but it really is important to make it beautiful - to begin even now to ask why things are the way they are -

they're a reason people will pack a club to hear Les Paul play a few notes ... or why people will go to a ballet to see a brief appearance of a famous dancer, or stand in line to see a beautiful painting - your right you have to walk before you can run... but just like learning your mother tongue - how you start matters, pronouncation and formation matters.

just some random thoughts ... let me know if they help.
And having re-read "learning to see" for you tonight - I would recommend at least taking a look at it.

Anij

Opps slip of the keys - "ABE stories " should read "ABC stories"

Here's an example ( just something random I found) of a ABC story, I'm a sucker for anything Harry Potter so an ABC HARRY POTTER story

Number Story

Anij

I believe there are over 40 (possibly 50?) distinct ASL handshapes ! It'd be a long list !

ismi

I've been reading some academic papers about handshapes recently. What I've read suggests that there are 56-ish handshapes, and 40 of them are 'commonly used'. (So I assume that means the other 16ish are only used for a few things.) For comparison's sake, native hearing speakers of English use about 40 phonemes.

Ariakkas

ive pretty much come to the conclusion, AB is gonna learn the way AB wants to, regardless of what anyone says. and thats not wrong, we all did that. One day he will have the "ah-ha!" moment we all had and then everything will become clear.

to continue the child analogy, right now its like trying to get a child to eat vegetables.

Anij

any chance the papers are online - I'd LOVE the read them (PM me if you'd prefer??)

Anij

should I be glad my long-winded posts haven't killed any trees ? *sigh*
(for the record do my posts make sense to anyone ? - or am I not communicating well in print? because that does happen, some times ... you know you have this crystal clear idea in your head , but it just doesn't transfer well onto the page)

jillio

Your posts are very clear, Anij. I think the problem is that AB is still thinking in terms of ASL being a "visual English." That is common with beginning learners of the language.

Etoile

Yeah, that's what I keep saying. When I read Anij's post about thinking in different languages, I thought of my comment that I made a couple of times - until one disconnects the ASL from the English, one is forever going to be translating in one's head.

Anij, thanks SO much for posting that Harry Potter ABC story! That was downright inspired! I love his use of Z.

AB, do you have a webcam or camera with video mode? Maybe you could make video of yourself signing and start getting feedback that way. I would be happy to give constructive feedback if you are interested.

AquaBlue

Before I respond to your posts- a very interesting (and yet frustrating) lesson for me, I would like to talk about salary. Note: I do not care so much about how much I will get paid for my future services, but I ran into this pda document on Terp salary that's curious. It says that:

• Freelance (per diem) earn $15-50/hour.
• Staff Interpreter (school, busi-ness, government agency, etc) earn $35,000 -$50,000/year.
• Specialist (highly skilled and credentialed interpreters spe-cializing in legal, medical, etc.) earn $50,000 or more.

This is the pda from my local city college that offers a degree in ASL studies. Here is the full document if you want to review it.

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AquaBlue

Where can I get a list of all the handshapes used in ASL?

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AquaBlue

I realize that all of you are trying very hard to get through to me on how to achieve the proper way of learning sign. But to tell you the truth (and I feel stupid about it) I just don't see what you all are trying to tell me. I want to follow your direction but I can't see what you all are telling me- what I am doing wrong. Please, please be patient with me. I usually get what I am being told...but not this time. All I do is think about what you all tell me, but it just doesn't register. What don't I understand? Tell me again please; in a way I can understand. I do not want to take one false step. I really want to learn from each of you.

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AquaBlue

So how can break away from that mode of thinking jillio?

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Anij

The handshape dictionary will have many of them ...

Handspeak lists many

as does HERE

AquaBlue

Wow! That's amazing. I never know that there were so many handshapes. Those handshapes are a must to learn. I'll get right to it. Thanks for links!

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AquaBlue

Okay, let's but it this way: What study proceedure did you use when you first began to learn ASL? Maybe that'll make me see your views. I hope. I am willing to cast out all my methods of learning and adapt a different (more effective) way of learning the language. Please do not throw your hand and forget about my struggles. I am serious about what I am saying and doing. Please, I need your help (as normal).

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Anij

(I'm not Jillio - but...)

OK - here's a few initial questions

1) when you see the sign "FLOWER" how do you process that information?

2) when you learn a new sign - how do make it a part of your sign vocabulary?

3) how do you recall a ASL gloss ?

AquaBlue

Hmm. Very interesting questions. I'll try to answer them as best I can.

1. I think of a flower (a rose for example) and used the established link that associates the object to the manual gesture. This (ususally) takes a nano-second to process.
2. Each sign I learn stands alone from the rest. Each sign (word) has its own meaning and thus not effect other signs. There are individual definitions so there is no relation to other words.
3. By creating a system of learning (a story or other association method) uniting the whole and yet keeping each separate from the other. Does that make sense?

This, I feel, works against what you are telling me to do...from what I gather. I just do not see your entire meaning.

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AquaBlue

Since so many of you are on me to change my study ways, I am willing to cast out my methods in order to more effectively learn the manual language of the Deaf.

Now to do so precisely is my current dilemma- my manner of thinking (I assume). You know that changing ones thinking is not an easy task for most so be patient with me. I’ve done things my way for a long time and a new way of thinking, most especially in learning, is not properly achieved overnight.

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shel90

When signing in ASL, think in pictures rather than the English words. Sign according to the situation happening in the picture.

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Reba

AquaBlue, you really need to start signing with other living, breathing signers. Learning ASL is not just an intellectual exercise of learning techniques. It's a flesh and blood language used daily by kids and adults at work, school, play, and in their personal relationships with each other.

Much of what others have posted here will be much clearer to you once you begin experiencing the language "hands on" and face to face.

Its like learning to drive a car. You can read about it, talk about it, watch videos about it, etc. But until you get behind the wheel and hit the highway, you can't really understand it.