So-called Terps- Sending Deaf PPL to Hell - Page 3

Etoile · 02-14-2008, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

Not off track yet, but I sense a major derailment coming along.

Really, I'm just lazy and don't want to post duplicates in two different threads, ha, ha.

Well, I see this thread as being useful for discussion of the issue, and that thread as being useful for discussion of the discussion.

You're right though, we will almost certainly be getting off the topic of religious interpreting.

Reba · 02-14-2008, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etoile

Well, I see this thread as being useful for discussion of the issue, and that thread as being useful for discussion of the discussion.

truesign · 02-14-2008, 04:16 PM

You're right. I jumped ahead of myself. Stokoe went into Gallaudet and learned sign on the job using American Signs in English order. When linguistic rules were established, it did not include signing in the "think tank". So, Stokoe misunderstood what was being signed. He knew some ASL in English order but didn't know the contractions.

Courts require Verbatim, which is word for word signing, and it is unethical to interpret because you are being paternalistic by explaining rather than quoting the judge. It is the judge's job to explain himself. "Terps" are not certified in law.

English was never forced down the deaf's throats. It began as English.
ASLTA is affiliated with NAD, which is a national organization for certifying national sign teachers.

Now what is sign language? I'm not talking about ASL, just sign language.

Another question, is Anthony's SEE I a seperate language from SEE II? Now there are 2 different English languages?

Also, I am not saying that terps are evil, just mistaught.

Etoile · 02-14-2008, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truesign

Courts require Verbatim, which is word for word signing, and it is unethical to interpret because you are being paternalistic by explaining rather than quoting the judge. It is the judge's job to explain himself. "Terps" are not certified in law.

I take it you haven't heard of the SC:L, the legal specialist certificate for interpreters. I know a colleague who was preparing to get her SC:L, and she most certainly did go to law school as part of her training. It's not enough to become a lawyer, but the idea that "interpreters are not certified in law" is patently false. As for "requiring verbatim" that's not true either. Courts require that the interpreters communicate in the manner most effective for the deaf person. If that is Signed English, then they must hire an interpreter who is qualified in Signed English. If that is ASL, then they must hire an interpreter who is qualified in ASL. If the deaf person has minimal skills in any language, and uses mostly gestures and home signs to communicate, they typically bring in a CDI who works with a hearing interpreter to get the message across to the deaf person as clearly as they can possibly understand. The very idea that someone with a conflict of interest would be allowed to interpret in a courtroom is spine-chilling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by truesign

English was never forced down the deaf's throats. It began as English.
ASLTA is affiliated with NAD, which is a national organization for certifying national sign teachers.

What began as English, exactly? ASL? No, ASL began as a combination of home signs, MVSL, and LSF. It was organically formed (not developed) by the students at teachers at the American School for the Deaf, which was founded in 1817.

Quote:

Originally Posted by truesign

Now what is sign language? I'm not talking about ASL, just sign language.

"Sign language" is a collective term for any form of MCE and native signed languages (ASL, LSQ, LSF, DGS, etc.) ASL is one type of sign language, that happens to have no relationship with English at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by truesign

Another question, is Anthony's SEE I a seperate language from SEE II? Now there are 2 different English languages?

They are different forms. I find it interesting that you would spout so much information about SEE when you don't know the difference between SEE1 and SEE2. Both of them are forms of Manually Coded English - that is, English presented through the hands. ASL is not Manually Coded English, it is another language. This is what you seem to be unaware of. You are talking about Signed English (I trust you've heard of that, surely?) but you think you know about ASL. You're talking about apples and oranges here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by truesign

Also, I am not saying that terps are evil, just mistaught.

Oh please, yes you are. You say interpreters are twisting the words of the speaker, you say they are using deaf people for their own interests, you say they are using gestures, you say that they don't give deaf people "the full advantage"...you are not saying they are mistaught, you are saying they are deliberately manipulating deaf people, and that's complete folly.

What amazes me the most is that you have learned so much about this in three short years. Are you sure you know what you're talking about when you say that generations upon generations of deaf people, and decades of research, are all wrong? Or maybe you're just trolling.

truesign · 02-14-2008, 04:51 PM

People with scl are still supposed to sign word for word, not explain it.

The teacher brought signing from france. His name was Clerc. The first teacher of the deaf in america. He was deaf. He had good English.

Sign language is speech. Just like oral and written language. They can be any grammar. The definition of language in sign language is really speech. For example, signed speech, oral speech, written speech. The other definition of language is grammar. For example, english language, spanish language, french language, etc. If "aol" (american oral language) and "awl" (american written language) are english, then it must follow in syllogism that asl (american sign language) has to be English. Like it or not.

SEE1 and SEE2 are nothing but different kinds of symbols. Alias anthony symbols and gustason symbols thats all they are. We have american symbols and we can put them in any order. Good english, broken english, deaf english. Terps obviously sign in deaf english.

Manually Coded English?. Ok so you speak Vocally Coded English? You write in Graphically Coded English? People don't use such terms so neither do I.

Aren't you learning too? Your icon says Gallaudet class of 11. So you still have alot of time to go. I deal with people that have been in the field for over 60 years. By the way, I notice you have CT by your icon, that means signing word for word don't it?. Why bother having the CT if you're arguing with me.

truesign · 02-14-2008, 05:04 PM

I'm curious, is ASL verbal or non-verbal communication?

Etoile · 02-14-2008, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truesign

Aren't you learning too? Your icon says Gallaudet class of 11. So you still have alot of time to go. I deal with people that have been in the field for over 60 years. By the way, I notice you have CT by your icon, that means signing word for word don't it?. Why bother having the CT if you're arguing with me.

I went back to school because I never finished my degree after I graduated high school. It has nothing to do with whether I'm "still learning" about the deaf community. I've been involved in this community for 23 years, but of course I am still learning. If you're not still learning, then your mind is rotting. Care to drop any names of those people you've been working with? I'd love to know who's putting those ideas into your head.

I have CI/CT because I speak both ASL and Signed English. I am qualified to work with your wife, who uses English word order, and with the majority of the signing deaf population, who use ASL. Why bother having it? So I can serve as many people as possible, not because I think Signed English is better than ASL. That's why I have both...because they are equally valuable.

You clearly know nothing about the history of the deaf community, the history and use of ASL, the profession of interpreting, or deaf culture. Why are you even here? You must be trolling, because nobody in their right mind would come onto AllDeaf with opinions like yours.

truesign · 02-14-2008, 05:06 PM

I know the answer already. I'm just curious about yours. And how long have you been involved in all this?

Etoile · 02-14-2008, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truesign

I'm curious, is ASL verbal or non-verbal communication?

This question is absurd. If you're so brilliant and you know exactly what ASL is and isn't, why do you have to ask this question? Oh right, because you're a troll.

truesign · 02-14-2008, 05:12 PM

CT is not signed English or SEE I or SEE II. It is just signing word for word. Deaf people had word for word before the SEEs even existed.

Here is a name for you.
George Johnston. Charter member of RID, ASLTA certified and 1 of the founders, and residential school graduate, Gallaudet graduate and professor, colleague of Stokoe, and alot of others that I am going to ask him about.

Even if he is outnumbered, "1 million fools do not make 1 wise man".

truesign · 02-14-2008, 05:13 PM

The verbal or non-verbal is a simple question. How come you can't answer? I challenge you to answer.

Etoile · 02-14-2008, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truesign

CT is not signed English or SEE I or SEE II. It is just signing word for word. Deaf people had word for word before the SEEs even existed.

I didn't say SEE, brainiac. I said Signed English. I don't know SEE2 at all, and I am clumsy in SEE1, but I use Signed English just fine. Oh wait, you haven't heard of it? Signed English is ASL vocabulary in English word order. You keep talking about "word for word" but you don't even know what it's called?

Once again, you have no idea what you're talking about. I'm on vacation in Puerto Rico, it's Valentine's Day, and you're full of shit. Therefore, I'm done with this discussion - it's time to let others have a turn anyway.

Etoile · 02-14-2008, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truesign

The verbal or non-verbal is a simple question. How come you can't answer? I challenge you to answer.

I decline. Have a nice day.

truesign · 02-14-2008, 05:30 PM

How can ASL be a different language and still be put into English word order.

And by the way, ASL is verbal communication believe it or not. You people that try to argue the subject always get stuck on this part. And I am full of shit? Please. You listen to the Interpreter trainers a little too much. Look up the word verbal. It means "of or pertaining to words" and if you think ASL has its own word order, it has to be verbal communication because you cannot have word order without words. Non-verbal means no words. It is obvious that you don't know what the word verbal means. It doesn't mean vocal like you're thinking. A baby's babbling is vocal but not verbal.

And is being in Puerto Rico supposed to be something special. I go down there for months with my wife. Nothing special that you have to put it out there. This is the excuse of a typical assinine person who wants to believe the bullshit thats coming out of their mouths. I guess I ain't so full of shit.

Etoile · 02-14-2008, 05:44 PM

My wife is still getting ready for dinner, so I'll comment:

Quote:

Originally Posted by truesign

How can ASL be a different language and still be put into English word order.

I didn't say it was ASL in English word order. I said it was ASL vocabulary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by truesign

And by the way, ASL is verbal communication believe it or not. You people that try to argue the subject always get stuck on this part. And I am full of shit? Please. You listen to the Interpreter trainers a little too much. Look up the word verbal. It means "of or pertaining to words" and if you think ASL has its own word order, it has to be verbal communication because you cannot have word order without words. Non-verbal means no words. It is obvious that you don't know what the word verbal means. It doesn't mean vocal like you're thinking. A baby's babbling is vocal but not verbal.

I didn't say anything about whether ASL was or wasn't verbal communication, so how do you know what I am thinking?

Quote:

Originally Posted by truesign

And is being in Puerto Rico supposed to be something special. I go down there for months with my wife. Nothing special that you have to put it out there. This is the excuse of a typical assinine person who wants to believe the bullshit thats coming out of their mouths. I guess I ain't so full of shit.

So I happened to say I was in PR

Sir, you are deeply misguided. I am happy to let you remain that way. Have a wonderful evening, stop talking to a person on the internet, and go be with your wife on this February 14th. That's what I'm going to do.

Tousi · 02-14-2008, 06:01 PM

Truesign, you crack me up; it's too bad you can't live up to your name (nick) sake and I'm being kind here. Go spew your nonsense somewhere else.

truesign · 02-14-2008, 06:08 PM

I am not getting mad about puerto rico. I could care less. And my wife is right here with laughing at this. She knows the bullshit interpreters try to pull. And it was obvious that you were thinking ASL is non-verbal. That is the common belief with uneducated interpreters. I am not saying I am the smartest person in this field. But facts are facts. There is no denying them. You just fail to look at them. You are going by what you are taught. Ask any person over 50 how ASL was and they will tell you ASL is English word for word originally.

truesign · 02-14-2008, 06:15 PM

Ok Tousi, if I'm spewing nonsense so much then why is it so difficult to get a straight forward answer. Because none of you have legitimate 1s. Ask any professional deaf person in the field of deaf ed and they will tell you. And remember to ask a deaf person, not a hearing, because hearing people don't fully comprehend this situation.

Kaimia · 02-14-2008, 07:35 PM

If you had read the full definition of "verbal", you would see that not only does it pertain to words, but it pertains specifically to words that are orally spoken. No sign language is spoken orally. ASL is defined as a "non-verbal language" by neuroscientists who study language acquisition (such as the difference in learning times and areas of the brain used for sign languages versus oral/spoken languages).

jillio · 02-14-2008, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truesign

You're right. I jumped ahead of myself. Stokoe went into Gallaudet and learned sign on the job using American Signs in English order. When linguistic rules were established, it did not include signing in the "think tank". So, Stokoe misunderstood what was being signed. He knew some ASL in English order but didn't know the contractions.

Courts require Verbatim, which is word for word signing, and it is unethical to interpret because you are being paternalistic by explaining rather than quoting the judge. It is the judge's job to explain himself. "Terps" are not certified in law.

English was never forced down the deaf's throats. It began as English.
ASLTA is affiliated with NAD, which is a national organization for certifying national sign teachers.

Now what is sign language? I'm not talking about ASL, just sign language.

Another question, is Anthony's SEE I a seperate language from SEE II? Now there are 2 different English languages?

Also, I am not saying that terps are evil, just mistaught.

If anyone is mistaught here, it is you. To date, you have gotten absolutely nothing correct.

jillio · 02-14-2008, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truesign

Actually, Stokoe did know ASL when he developed SEE. As a matter of fact, the teacher that I am referring to knew Stokoe on a professional level. And, if you did your research correctly you would know that there were certifications in sign language and deaf history. Now it has changed to a "terps" certification which technically gives the "terp" the ability to sign exactly what the other person is saying. The key word being exactly. That is an interpreters job. Its not to change the words to fit what they want because that's exactly what's being done. For example, the church setting. Its said not to change the word of God or you are punished and sent to hell. "Terps" do exactly that with their gestures. And as far as getting sued, I do not interpret professionally, only for my wife. But I do know signers that freelance in courts and hospitals. Signers and "terps" are different. And there is more of a chance of a deaf person missing what was said with your current version of ASL than with word for word. You cannot get the full advantage of comprehending what is said with the "cut up" version. The gestures and everything may look nice and beautiful, but its primitive. The deaf world is going backwards. They began that way and then developed and grew and now they're going back down the same road. If you talk to any old school deaf people and ask them to sign real ASL as they knew it from their time, they will sign word for word if they are educated. That's because the education system focused on that so deaf people would have better jobs and better lives. Not having to depend on ssi or ssd. Another example is the sign for "what for". Experienced deaf people signed so fast that the people watching them got it confused. If you pay attention to the original sign for that it starts with a full "what for". Then the what started getting towards the forehead. Then it was so rapid that it looked like the person was saying "for for". Really, that is "what for" but its being taken the wrong way. That's the same as people saying that there is no "is, am, are". That's another ridiculous statement. That is the index finger to the mouth and brought straight out. Not curved like true or real and not Stokoe's pinky finger out. And in another sense, if you have the sentence "I'm going to the mall", a hearing person has the contraction of I'm. It is understood in true sign language that the conjunction is included in I. So really the deaf person is not saying "I going to the mall", its "I'm". Its just not understood on the "terps" side. Deaf people believe that they are getting quality service with a "terp" but really they're getting the "terps" words, not the speakers. And I am fully ready to defend what I said. I would actually be more than happy to get a meeting going and have a debate over this.

If a terp's job was to sign every word that is said, it would be called transliterating, not intepreting. You are really off base.

jillio · 02-14-2008, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truesign

Ok Tousi, if I'm spewing nonsense so much then why is it so difficult to get a straight forward answer. Because none of you have legitimate 1s. Ask any professional deaf person in the field of deaf ed and they will tell you. And remember to ask a deaf person, not a hearing, because hearing people don't fully comprehend this situation.

You are hearing. Quite obviously, you don't comprehend the issue at all. And how do you know that Tousi is not a deaf person involved in deaf ed?

jillio · 02-14-2008, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truesign

I am not getting mad about puerto rico. I could care less. And my wife is right here with laughing at this. She knows the bullshit interpreters try to pull. And it was obvious that you were thinking ASL is non-verbal. That is the common belief with uneducated interpreters. I am not saying I am the smartest person in this field. But facts are facts. There is no denying them. You just fail to look at them. You are going by what you are taught. Ask any person over 50 how ASL was and they will tell you ASL is English word for word originally.

Yes, facts are facts. And to date, you have come up with none.

jillio · 02-14-2008, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truesign

I'm curious, is ASL verbal or non-verbal communication?

ASL is non-verbal communication. It is manual, conceptually based, and visual and spatial.

jillio · 02-14-2008, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

"...At court, I sign word for word no problem with my wife. Same at the doctors...."

WHAT!!!???

Agreed!!!! I see not only a violation of the ADA, but an ethics breach as well.

jillio · 02-14-2008, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truesign

How can ASL be a different language and still be put into English word order.

And by the way, ASL is verbal communication believe it or not. You people that try to argue the subject always get stuck on this part. And I am full of shit? Please. You listen to the Interpreter trainers a little too much. Look up the word verbal. It means "of or pertaining to words" and if you think ASL has its own word order, it has to be verbal communication because you cannot have word order without words. Non-verbal means no words. It is obvious that you don't know what the word verbal means. It doesn't mean vocal like you're thinking. A baby's babbling is vocal but not verbal.

And is being in Puerto Rico supposed to be something special. I go down there for months with my wife. Nothing special that you have to put it out there. This is the excuse of a typical assinine person who wants to believe the bullshit thats coming out of their mouths. I guess I ain't so full of shit.

Your knowledge of linguistics is totally absent. ASL in English word order no longer is ASL. It is not English, either. It is a pidgin language. Therefore, it does not qualify as a separate language at all.

SEE1 and SEE2 are English.

ASL does not use words. It uses manual symbols in the same way that verbal languages use oral symbols, or written symbols. A simple is nothing more than a representation of a concept.

ASL does not have its own word order. It has, however, its own syntax and grammar rules. It does not have its own word order because it does not have words. It has to be translated into English equlivalent of a word through interpretation of the concept.

A baby's babbling is pre-verbal, and is related to spoken language in that baby's only babble in those particular vowel/consonant combinations which ar specific to the mother tongue.

It is quite obvious that you need to back off with the opinions and do some studying.

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02-14-2008, 04:16 PM	#63 (permalink)
truesign Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 13	You're right. I jumped ahead of myself. Stokoe went into Gallaudet and learned sign on the job using American Signs in English order. When linguistic rules were established, it did not include signing in the "think tank". So, Stokoe misunderstood what was being signed. He knew some ASL in English order but didn't know the contractions. Courts require Verbatim, which is word for word signing, and it is unethical to interpret because you are being paternalistic by explaining rather than quoting the judge. It is the judge's job to explain himself. "Terps" are not certified in law. English was never forced down the deaf's throats. It began as English. ASLTA is affiliated with NAD, which is a national organization for certifying national sign teachers. Now what is sign language? I'm not talking about ASL, just sign language. Another question, is Anthony's SEE I a seperate language from SEE II? Now there are 2 different English languages? Also, I am not saying that terps are evil, just mistaught.

02-14-2008, 04:51 PM	#65 (permalink)
truesign Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 13	People with scl are still supposed to sign word for word, not explain it. The teacher brought signing from france. His name was Clerc. The first teacher of the deaf in america. He was deaf. He had good English. Sign language is speech. Just like oral and written language. They can be any grammar. The definition of language in sign language is really speech. For example, signed speech, oral speech, written speech. The other definition of language is grammar. For example, english language, spanish language, french language, etc. If "aol" (american oral language) and "awl" (american written language) are english, then it must follow in syllogism that asl (american sign language) has to be English. Like it or not. SEE1 and SEE2 are nothing but different kinds of symbols. Alias anthony symbols and gustason symbols thats all they are. We have american symbols and we can put them in any order. Good english, broken english, deaf english. Terps obviously sign in deaf english. Manually Coded English?. Ok so you speak Vocally Coded English? You write in Graphically Coded English? People don't use such terms so neither do I. Aren't you learning too? Your icon says Gallaudet class of 11. So you still have alot of time to go. I deal with people that have been in the field for over 60 years. By the way, I notice you have CT by your icon, that means signing word for word don't it?. Why bother having the CT if you're arguing with me.

02-14-2008, 05:04 PM	#66 (permalink)
truesign Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 13	I'm curious, is ASL verbal or non-verbal communication?

02-14-2008, 05:06 PM	#68 (permalink)
truesign Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 13	I know the answer already. I'm just curious about yours. And how long have you been involved in all this?

02-14-2008, 05:12 PM	#70 (permalink)
truesign Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 13	CT is not signed English or SEE I or SEE II. It is just signing word for word. Deaf people had word for word before the SEEs even existed. Here is a name for you. George Johnston. Charter member of RID, ASLTA certified and 1 of the founders, and residential school graduate, Gallaudet graduate and professor, colleague of Stokoe, and alot of others that I am going to ask him about. Even if he is outnumbered, "1 million fools do not make 1 wise man".

02-14-2008, 05:13 PM	#71 (permalink)
truesign Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 13	The verbal or non-verbal is a simple question. How come you can't answer? I challenge you to answer.

02-14-2008, 05:30 PM	#74 (permalink)
truesign Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 13	How can ASL be a different language and still be put into English word order. And by the way, ASL is verbal communication believe it or not. You people that try to argue the subject always get stuck on this part. And I am full of shit? Please. You listen to the Interpreter trainers a little too much. Look up the word verbal. It means "of or pertaining to words" and if you think ASL has its own word order, it has to be verbal communication because you cannot have word order without words. Non-verbal means no words. It is obvious that you don't know what the word verbal means. It doesn't mean vocal like you're thinking. A baby's babbling is vocal but not verbal. And is being in Puerto Rico supposed to be something special. I go down there for months with my wife. Nothing special that you have to put it out there. This is the excuse of a typical assinine person who wants to believe the bullshit thats coming out of their mouths. I guess I ain't so full of shit.

02-14-2008, 06:01 PM	#76 (permalink)
Tousi Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 8,260	Truesign, you crack me up; it's too bad you can't live up to your name (nick) sake and I'm being kind here. Go spew your nonsense somewhere else.

02-14-2008, 06:08 PM	#77 (permalink)
truesign Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 13	I am not getting mad about puerto rico. I could care less. And my wife is right here with laughing at this. She knows the bullshit interpreters try to pull. And it was obvious that you were thinking ASL is non-verbal. That is the common belief with uneducated interpreters. I am not saying I am the smartest person in this field. But facts are facts. There is no denying them. You just fail to look at them. You are going by what you are taught. Ask any person over 50 how ASL was and they will tell you ASL is English word for word originally.

02-14-2008, 06:15 PM	#78 (permalink)
truesign Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 13	Ok Tousi, if I'm spewing nonsense so much then why is it so difficult to get a straight forward answer. Because none of you have legitimate 1s. Ask any professional deaf person in the field of deaf ed and they will tell you. And remember to ask a deaf person, not a hearing, because hearing people don't fully comprehend this situation.

02-14-2008, 07:35 PM	#79 (permalink)
Kaimia Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Minnesota Posts: 13	If you had read the full definition of "verbal", you would see that not only does it pertain to words, but it pertains specifically to words that are orally spoken. No sign language is spoken orally. ASL is defined as a "non-verbal language" by neuroscientists who study language acquisition (such as the difference in learning times and areas of the brain used for sign languages versus oral/spoken languages).