tegumi

This is kind of a wierd question. How many people have seen "Sound and Fury"?? Its the movie about CI's. In that documentary, a CODA woman has a Deaf son, and she wants to get him CI's, and eventually does so by the end of the movie.

My question was in the movie, the mother of the infant who is a CODA signs to her parents, but she voices the English at the same time. I was wondering, is this because she wanted to be her own terp? Or she didnt want to bother getting a terp? Is this acceptable in everyday life if I sign and voice at the same time? From what I have seen, voicing and signing at the same time isnt excepted. How do you feel about this? Just curious.

Teg

Deafness

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signer16

I have seen the movie Sound and Fury, it is not a weird question. However, from what I saw in the movie, most of the time, the CODA daughter only signed with her parents, and had a voiceover, which might have been hers, interpreting for her. The only time she talked was when she was signing and talking to her son, Peter, once he got the implant. I don't think worried about getting a 'terp, I think that the movie producers would be doing all that. She may have voiced for herself to make it sound consistently like her, and not confuse the hearing audience.
As for voicing and signing at the same time, it depends. It is virtually impossible, even for CODA's, to speak English and sign in ASL at the same time for any real length of time. If you are signing PSE, it is possible, but still, at least for me, fairly distracting. Deaf people don't mind if u voice, if it's just them, cuz they don't hear you. They are judging you on your signing ability, so why you would voice is beyond me but... It is suggested not to voice with hearing ASL students because they depend on the voice, not the signing, BELIEVE ME. If you are chatting with hearies at a deaf event, or when deaf people are around, it is polite to be signing. If you want to voice, unless it is a distraction to other people, you probably could, but I don't see why you would.
I know many people, hearing and deaf, who sign and voice, when they are with deaf and hearing people (who don't know sign). this is usually the most efficent way to communicate, though some of both language usually gets dropped, and it's usually that person's weaker language.
-okay, just my thoughts, it's late, bye

tegumi

It wasnt a voice over, if you watch the movie again, alot of times she was signing, such as with her parents indoors, and at the picnic outdoors, she was voicing at the same time, it wasnt a voice over.

CODAchild

I too saw Sound and Fury, being a CODA, I myself found both the woman very infuriating. First the woman who had the CI's put into her child. Was that necessary? Did she want a perfect child? She also is a CODA, but, the way she treated her deaf parents were unacceptable. It seems putting CI's into her child, resorted to the fact that she didn't want her child growing up like her parent's did. She felt her parent's were under educated and she humiliated them publicly in front of their friends. I couldn't believe the way she acted towards them, and showed no pride in being raised by deaf parent's.

Now, the woman who would sign and talk, I feel drew attention to herself. She definitely wanted a perfect child and used the CI to do that. No, signing and speaking at the same time is not the appropriate thing to do, which I find myself doing a lot, and then correcting myself. The only time I would sign and use my voice is when there is a hearing person present who doesn't know or understand sign language.

God blessed us with children whether they be deaf, hearing, hard of hearing of any other physical handicaps. These parent's should have been grateful for the fact that they were blessed with these children. If they were born deaf, or hard of hearing, then it's their duty as parent's to learn their childrern's way of life. Let them educate themselves on deafness, learning to sign and what these parent's will be responsible for to provide a good deaf education for their children. Most importantly, these parents must learn to communicate with their children who are deaf, and I don't mean just lipreading or CI's. I mean learning sign language.

Like these people in Sound and Fury, God blessed them with children, and yes they are deaf, then they should have been happy just the same and thank God these children are healthy. These 2 sets of parents should have accepted and adapted to their children's way of life, being deaf, not trying to change these kids into being a hearing child.

Sorry to ramble on, but, this is how I feel because I used to work at the Rhode Island School for the Deaf, and the parents who have children that wear CI's, do not fully sign to their children, because they want their children to oral. I agree that the child does need to learn to speak, but, don't take their culture away from them, that isn't right, and it isn't fair.

Thank you!!!! CODAchild

tegumi

No, thank you for rambling on.. I like to know peoples input on the situation. I thought that lady was sooo stupid... she almost seemed ashamed of her Deaf parents, and went as far as to get her infant a CI. My best friend is Deaf, and I think it would be the coolest thing in the world to have a Deaf child, because it would be such an experience and I would give that child a great life and would not try and fix them with a CI, and I wouldnt be all stupid about it like alot of hearing parents are. Plus, I would be extremely more motivated to learn more signs, besides learning to talk about people in ASL with my friend... hehe... That woman in that movie pissed me off so bad! She had no right to do that! Anyway... thats just how I feel on it.

Teg

CODAchild

I do agree with you there that she did seem very embarrassed that she has deaf parent's. How she embarrassed them in front of their friends, and not to mention getting her parent's friends involved in an issue that is beyond their culture. CI's are nasty. If a child is born deaf, don't change them, accept their deafness, that is the way God intended them to be.
Both my parent's are deaf, so I was brought up with the deaf community, and when I came of age, I stayed with the deaf community, and they accepted me as being hearing and because I sign my acceptance was much greater. My parent's didn't force me to act like a deaf person, I chose to be involved with the deaf community.
That is what this couple in the movie should have done. Accepted the fact their baby is deaf, and should have been all the more proud!!!
It aggrevates me that these people who children that are born deaf, right away, decided to make them hearing. No, their culture is deaf and that should not be taken away from them. They were born with freedom like you and I, give them that right to decide their future.

Banjo

Cochlear Implantation is not the cure, it is a technology to help them hear, not to cure deafness. If your children need eyeglasses to correct their visual problems, don't buy any. It's not right to do anything that may "adjust" their problems.

The problem here is... you're a hearing person. Sure, your parents are deaf... but you aren't. You'll never know what it is like to be in the shoes of a deaf person. Experiences varies among deaf people, many of them have different experiences. You seem to be so misinformed on the technology of cochlear implantation. You even resorted to typical tactics by saying using examples from a school for the deaf when it's a known fact that the majority of schools for the deaf are quite poorly-managed and lack a solid educational system. Especially when all the students are scattered all over the school and lumped into the classrooms they shouldn't be in.

Also, I don't believe that cochlear implantees should be even attending a school for the deaf because they really don't get to hear voices and much more like they would get in a public/private school. Experiences are pretty much an asset for the cochlear implantees and they have to be exposed to voices and the surrounding noises it as much as possible to develop a better understanding.

However, I believe it's perfectly necessary for the cochlear implantee to be taught how to both speak and sign. That way, if the oral approach doesn't work out, the child will have something to fall back onto rather than a bottomless pit. I do support the idea of teaching children to be bilingual since both English and ASL (along with other sign languages) are important to me. I depend on both of these to get me on with my life.

It also aggravates me that a hearing person would dare to scold a parent for making a choice based on the belief that it will benefit the child. Deaf children to this day still face far too many barriers from being unable to hear. But the technology isn't a pair of one-size-fit-all shoes either. They often have to be quite selective of who is a worthy candidate. That's the case in Canada, they are quite selective and won't implant if they believe you won't benefit from it.

In general, parents accept the fact that their child is deaf and it is also a known fact that deafness is a disability. It is a disability, whether you like it or not. I've accepted that fact, but do I allow it to stop me? Nope, not at all. Am I happy with how my life is? Hell yeah. Therefore, it's understandable why parents may be disappointed with their children being deaf. But do they have to accept your beliefs? No, they don't have to because it isn't theirs'. They do what they believe is the best for their children and if they believe that cochlear implantation is the way to go, let them as long they are willing to make the commitment to get involved with the child's life as much as possible to pave the road to a bright future for him/her.

Mind you, my family are all hearing and they are capable of signing in conversations. I'm not a cochlear implantee either, but I believe in supporting the rights of the parents because they do love their children and may make choices that you may not agree with, but it's not your child either.

Parental rights, I'm all for it till the kids are of legal age. The deaf community has no rights to interfere with a parent's decision, period.

There are many opportunities out there for deaf children, cochlear implantation is one of these opportunities. Parents can make many choices for their children because they do believe that it may be the best for them as I said earlier. Stop trying to portray the parents as tyrants, you are the tyrant because you want their rights to make choices for their children taken away and let the Deaf Militants take over.

Yes, there is such a thing as a Deaf Militant. I've met them on many occasions, and they are often misinformed and jealous of the achievements that some d/Deaf people made in their lives. It's ridiculous how somebody has to take offense to the idea of a child being implanted with a technology that isn't being called a cure, but to help the child hear. Clearly, it's envy, nothing more.

Just to let you know, I attend deaf events occasionally because I have several deaf and Deaf friends. I respect for who they are, but it does irks me that when one don't respect somebody else just because s/he disagree with a choice that this person may had made.

I'm all about choices, but the children certainly aren't emotionally capable of making their own decisions till they mature. That's why we have parents to raise and guide us through our lives.

I'll like to make a request, please don't respond right away. Take your time to think this over and make a response without putting any emotional tones into it, and try to see through your bias.

Thank you.

Cookie Monster

CODAs are automatically "shoo-ins" to the Deaf Community and readily accepted because of their parents. For those who are born d/Deaf with no Deaf parentage, they have to battle it out on their own within the Deaf community.

I firmly believe CI implantees should be mainstreamed because they will be talking most of the time in a mainstreamed setting rather in a Deaf school setting. CI implantees need to be exposed to background noises and the acoustics in order to differentiate between voices.

Sadly, Deaf Militants do try to stop mainstreaming, CI implantation and even the better education of d/Deaf children. Like Banjo states, it is envy. Shouldn't parents want nothing only the best for their children?

I love that simple request and it does encourage one to think about re-wording and thinking twice before pressing submit.

tegumi

Ok Banjo, I waited a while to think it over before I am responding, and I hope I dont say anything too bad... and the only thing I have to say is, what if your parents made the decision to implant you as a child? How would you feel? I believe that implanting should only be done when the child is old enough for them to decide for themselves. My cousin has a CI and she is completely oral. As soon as she started mainstreamed school, kids started making fun of her and calling her robot, robocop, and terminator. How would you feel if you were in those shoes? Also, the internal components of a CI can stop working at anytime in your life, and all of a sudden not work for you. Would you want your skull reopened to put in another one or to fix the one that you have? Or if you wouldnt fix it, how could you leave it inside your head knowing that you have something useless inside your skull that doesnt need to be there, but yet you have a surgical scar? Just something to think about, and thats why I believe the choice should be made when the child is old enough to make a reasonable decision.

Teg

Banjo

Personally, I wouldn't be angry at my parents at all. I would know that they were only doing what they believe was the best for me. At least I know they love me and want to give me as much opportunities as possible. Toddlers aren't capable of having rational thoughts on the technology. If the child matures and become angry at his/her parents for having her implanted, it is more likely that it's because of the treatment she get from the peers.

You're entitled to your opinion. That's your belief, and you should apply your beliefs to the decisions you make for your children. It's a way of being true to yourself.

I've been bullied, teased and pushed around as a kid. Everybody go through with it. That's part of life, and we learn to deal with the bullying problems. These kids obviously have no sense of good manners if they actually resort to making fun of somebody. Kids can be cruel, you know that. Even they are cruel to a deaf child without a cochlear implant, believe me. Hearing kids had kicked sand into my eyes for just making silly noises while playing... by myself in the sandbox at a public park. Hearing kids get bullied around too as well. Pretty much a natural stage for any child to go through with regardless of if they are deaf or not. :-/

If I had found the CI technology to be a benefit, I would go under the knife to replace or repair it. But if I haven't found it to be much of any uses, then I may as well not consider going under an operation to have it done. Honestly, I wouldn't care any less about having an useless metal object in my head. Some people have plates in their heads from accidents and more. I'm not self-concious about my body at all.

Thanks for taking the time to make a response, I appreciate it. Even though my first posting wasn't toward you, but thanks for responding anyway.

CODAchild

Hello Banjo, I have read your response and I respect your honest and your opinion totally, but, I wasn't trying to sound like a tyrant. I agree with you that there are choices that are made, I agree that there are loving parent's that help make these choices so their children can live in a world where they can communicate with deaf as well as hearing. I have a foster child that is deaf, is ADHD and PTSD and have done everything my husband and I can to make his life a much more livable place. So you can't say that I don't know what it's like to be deaf. My parent's, my husband, my foster son.

Your point of reasoning was a very good one and has made me think twice about what I have said. Thank you for your input, and I truly appreciate your honesty and in no way was I trying to be disrespectful or a "tyrant".

Take care and have a nice evening.

Liza

I dunno about the terp part.. I guess she wanted to express herself in all ways possible? It's up to ya, pretty much, methinks! Whatever you feel comforable with.

In norway, the norm of the deaf culture here is that we gotta move our lips and use norwegian words to make ourselves understood along with the signs. I had a hard time making myself understood when I would talk with english while using a decent level of norwegian sign language... go figure. LOL

But with ASL, I see it's a lot more flexible... it does not matter whether you use your voice or move your lips to make yourself understood.. although some staunch opinions have it that the voice is absolutely not necessary and should not be used when using ASL. I guess, use your judgment and whatever you are comforable with? It doesn't matter to me as long as you can make yourself understood with the signs.

Banjo

Thanks for the great response.

I understand, you aren't a tyrant. Sometimes I just have to use a certain word to give it a stronger approach, not just for you... but for some other readers to take in consideration too.

Again, thanks and you take care too.

tegumi

Thank you everybody for sharing your opinions in this thread, and thank you for behaving like the mature adults we all are. It helps alot when you just express your thoughts, instead of bashing the ADer... Its alright if you put down someones opinion, and not the person, as long as you can back up your opinion that is.....

CODAchild

Thank you for being so understanding and very nice. I really appreciated your nice response, and it's good to know that we can share an opinion, but, at the same time be honest about our feelings.
You're good in my book!!!! Have a wonderful day!!!

CODAchild

It is good when we can convey our feelings and opinions, to each other, as long as their is an open mind for open communication. That was experienced here. You set up a good conversation piece, for all of us to share in and discuss as mature adults.
Have a wonderful day!!!

tegumi

I really enjoyed reading your guys opinions in this thread, but the title kind of throws you off, I didnt know what to call it.

teg

deafdyke

Banjo, hey I really see little to no Deaf militantancy here. Why is it that some people take opposition to the CI as proof of miltancy? I mean I'm OK with pediatric CIs in certain cases, like with auditory nereopathy or the cases where hearing aids provide little to no help....Yet b/c I think that implantation should be a VERY selective thing I'm automaticly branded as an agitator?
Implantation criteria here is very loose. You can get implanted if you hear 60% with hearing aids! That just seems kinda rediclous!

Banjo.....I'd have to disagree with that. Some hearing parents are totally OK with their child's deafness, but a lot....and I mean a LOT of parents, especially those who didn't really have any exposure to those with disabilties while growing up, just want "healthy normal" (whatever THAT means) kids......
Yes, many parents try to do what's they think is best for their kids, but a lot of the ones choosing oral-only made the decision on biased infomation or ablist infomation....

Banjo

Actually, I was referring to my experiences in person. We don't see a lot of these here on Alldeaf and let's thank God for that. Though there is one forum for the deaf on the Internet that are filled with deaf militants.

This is where I agree with you, candidates should be carefully chosen. Over the years, they've loosen up the qualifications required for the implantation. The technology itself has made a lot of advancements especially in the last few years but it is still no where as useful as a natural ear, no doubt on that part. That's why there need to be a lot of medical research done in the next few decades to find a more natural way to treat deafness and it should be by choice, not force.

[quote]Banjo.....I'd have to disagree with that. Some hearing parents are totally OK with their child's deafness, but a lot....and I mean a LOT of parents, especially those who didn't really have any exposure to those with disabilties while growing up, just want "healthy normal" (whatever THAT means) kids......

The doctors I saw when I was around 11 or 12 were quite friendly and informative. They didn't try to pressure me into anything, they just answered the questions that I had for them. They weren't even disappointed that I said that I don't feel like I'm ready for it. In fact, they told me that I shouldn't go with it if I don't feel comfortable. But I can imagine some other doctors doing the opposite to their patients especially in countries that don't have universal healthcare.

Biased information? I know what you mean, both sides are pretty much guilty of this. :-/

Gemtun

[quote=deafdyke
Yes, many parents try to do what's they think is best for their kids, but a lot of the ones choosing oral-only made the decision on biased infomation or ablist infomation....[/QUOTE]

Not necessarily true..my brother and his wife are deaf. THey have a deaf daughter and they chose oral education/cochlear implant for her. She is now 10 years old and mainstreamed in a public school in Phoenix.

It is not always because of audism or whatnot..it is because parents want their kids to have ALL tools available for their kids. We are not here to judge them. Each parent is different.

The world is biased..there is not a speck of unbiaseness in this world. But we are not here to judge but follow our own hearts/minds/choices, etc.

deafdyke

We've ALL dealt with extremists....but Banjo you gotta admit that the old hardliners are softening. I think in about five or ten years many of the people who were against it, will accept it. It's just like with hearing aids. Back in the old days there were lots of Deaf who thought that hearing aids would destroy Deaf culture....now aids are accepted.
I do see a lot of parents and doctors who are neutral or who are OK with their kids disabilties.....but a LOT of them still want "healthy normal" kids....
True....not all oral first or orally educated kids are products of that mentality.
I can and do understand. Some parents want their kids first language to be English and others think that a TC education does not concentrate enough on speech therapy. But a lot of parents still are wicked uncomfortable with the trappings of disabilty, as so chose oralism b/c it seems SO NORMAL!!!!! That is a big reason why I am against oralism.....b/c its proponets push it as something that's healthy and normal, rather then as a useful skill. If more oralists promoted oral skills as a useful surivival skill, rather then as an audist thing , I and many others wouldn't even BE against oralism!

deafdyke

Oh and Banjo.....many of us who are trying to help the parents of today, are ex-orals. We were told that hearing and talking were the way to freedom, many of our parents were charter members of AG Bell....we spent our childhoods going "Boo-Be-Bah" and having our speech corrected constantly. Many of today's parents are going to look back in ten or fifteen years and think "I should have learned Sign....should have exposed my kids to Deaf culture"