Originally Posted by sequoias

Wirelessly posted (sent from a smartphone. )



Old fashioned guy. :-)

Originally Posted by diehardbiker

Im not misinformed at all, none of them are feasible yet. The only time it will happen is if we run out of oil which is not going to happen anytime soon. Trust me, I have heard that we are running out of oil since when? Its early 70's and 40 years has passed we still see oil flowing. 40 years is long long long time

Originally Posted by deafsmogtech

Right, I see the modern electric vehicles is like I see the pictures of the electric antique vehicles.... Same story.

Originally Posted by diehardbiker

I can see why, it is still very expensive to produce these cars since they produced only small quantity, thus result very expensive if sells, so they leased it instead. I cant find article that I read few months ago that it cost around $150K to produce each electric cars. No one is going to buy $150K for electric cars, so lease it instead. That way companies can get these cars back and do more research. Again, it is subsidized from what I am aware of.

This is part of reason why I have very doubt on viability on these electric cars. First of all, it has not kicked excitement, and it is still below half percentage of total vehicle sales. If it is at least 25% then I can see potentials.

Forget electric, Hydrogen is way to go! The only differences between All electric and Hydrogen is how it is refueling. Electric have to recharge and it can take time, comparing to Hydrogen which refuels almost same way as gasoline, yet runs same way as electric. Both of these vehicle runs on electric motor, and I think Hydrogen fuel cell which is pretty much like batteries are much safer than regular batteries. Why? Once in collision, it is easy to cut off the power on fuel cell verses 100% electric batteries that can't cut off power its own when in accident.

Originally Posted by sequoias

Wirelessly posted (sent from a smartphone. )

DHB, the Nissan leaf, you can own or lease. If it costs 150k to make one, why is Nissan selling them by the thousands? I bet you want to be right not wrong. You are greatly misinformed.

Ford is going to release electric version of Focus.

Hydrogen is still way too expensive to own for average american. They are no better than an electric car, range and cost is no better. There is actually no route of what to replace the petroenum burning vehicles by the mass. You need to research more on the downsides on the hydrogen, I don't see many positives yet. You need LOTS of energy to process eletrocyclis to make hydrogen for vehicles. The best bet is compressed natural gas, probably better than hydrogen.

Originally Posted by deafsmogtech

I guess they(electric cars) use impact sensors (crash sensors) where the battery module (computer) will shut the battery pack down when the vehicle is in accident.

Originally Posted by Chevy57

I heard that hydrogen gas is expensive to produce. Why can't one just simply extract hydrogen from water?

Originally Posted by deafsmogtech

Right, I see the modern electric vehicles is like I see the pictures of the electric antique vehicles.... Same story.

Originally Posted by diehardbiker

Exactly, the story and talk has been repeat several times since 1870's Electric and gas motor companies have been battled and gas motor company won in 1906 (That was Ford motor corp). Since then attempt to get attract on electric cars have failed repeat. How can this change after hundred years of unsuccessfully get people attract to all Electric. I was old enough to hear and remember the talks. That is why I knew people who thinks Electric cars are way to go is truly misinformed.

I am not going to buy two vehicles, one just electric for commuting and other one to get out of town on vacation the American style. No way!

Originally Posted by sequoias

Well, it does make sense to me. For you, it probably doesn't. It's good to have a fuel efficient vehicle and other for work/play.

Originally Posted by diehardbiker

Im not here to tell you that you are wrong. I understand your desire to support fuel efficient. I personally am all for fuel efficient, and I am not leaving convenience out, as it will always be part of our everyday lives. Gasoline vehicles has been one of most convenient vehicles, and it has proved since 1906. Electric is not most convenient because it has its limitations. Now you see why I see Hydrogen is better choice and should invest in that path. Plus, I predict that Hydrogen fuel cell will solve the drought problems in some areas. Howcome? They emit pure water vapor and it has to come back down anyway.

Originally Posted by sequoias

Like I said the range and cost for the hydrogen vehicles is no better than a electric car. People buy gasoline cars since 1906 because they're cheaper but gasoline engines have been always never been energy efficient, they are about 15-20% into energy and most of it wasted to heat. Electric motors are much more efficient in power usage. Hydrogen cars, I have no idea how efficient they are compared to gasoline counterparts.

We shall see in the few years to a decade to see what happens.

Originally Posted by diehardbiker

Let me clarify this, Hydrogen fuel cell vehicle and all Electric vehicle both has same motor that turns the powertrain. It is how it is refuel is what the difference are.

Electric, you need to plug in and wait hours before it gets fully recharged, verses Hydrogen you just refuel almost same way as gasoline. That is part why I see potential with Hydrogen. Other advantage with Hydrogen is that no need to build more power plants.

Originally Posted by sequoias

Um, that's what battery recycling is for. Haven't you heard of recycling rechargeable batteries? How sad.

Originally Posted by Eighty

Recycling batteries cost money, more labor, and still pollinates. Also other con about using pure electric car in some area, electric could be generated by coal plants. Kinda indirect, but still people will be charging their cars at home coming from coal plant. I think thats kinda silly.

It will be VERY hard to convince me that electric car is best way to solve environment/resource crisis without better energy storage technology, power supplier, and electric grid.


Hydrogen is VERY easy to collect and is renewable source of energy. Once they get all mass production of hydrogen figured out, it'll be extremely cheap. Like I said, they have really high potential energy per mass unit, that mean it can be used for other applications.

Originally Posted by sequoias

Oh, there's hydrogen powered ICE. I didn't know about hydrogen powering a electric motor. How is that possible since electric motor doesn't run on hydrogen.

Originally Posted by sequoias

If hydrogen is very easy to get, why do you need to have electrocyclis process to make hydrogen which requires LOT of energy to make that. You can't do it on your own without expensive equipment.

Originally Posted by sequoias

Not just coal plants. Nuclear, solar, wind, hydro, etc. It's still better than million of cars spewing pollution in the air versus only a few power plants.

If hydrogen is very easy to get, why do you need to have electrocyclis process to make hydrogen which requires LOT of energy to make that. You can't do it on your own without expensive equipment.

Whatever happened to the Toyota hydrogen powered car? It was a prototype few years ago and nothing happened.

Originally Posted by diehardbiker

Ok, here is the idea, Fuel cell acts pretty much same as rechargeable batteries. The difference is that in fuel cell, is that hydrogen is feed into chamber, with electrolyte plates and it react when meet the oxygen, thus produce electric current that gives energy to electric motor.

Originally Posted by Eighty

That why I said "some area", I know that there is different type of power plants. I am just stating the worst case scenario.

I am aware of electrolysis method, but theres so many different way to collect hydrogen; mechanically, chemically, and biologically. Easiest way could be just fill up stagnant water with algae and it will start producing hydrogen.

People have been working on energy storage technology so much longer than hydrogen technology. So, hydrogen technology is still very primitive.

Originally Posted by diehardbiker

HHO Hydrogen Fuel Cell - YouTube

Im trying to find a good animation for you to understand this cool fuel cell.

Originally Posted by sequoias

Yeah, I can see hydrogen technology is sort of new to us. I think the hydrogen powering a electric motor sounds pretty cool and lot less waste than the battery powered ones.

Originally Posted by sequoias

If the car has a reserve tank to carry the water that was used up from the process, would be cool to use for dry climates as long the minerals are added.

Originally Posted by Eighty

Yup I agree, I think its most awesome technology nowadays.

Also one more thing I forgot to mention, weight of batteries is crazy. The more weight, the more power it requires. Hydrogen is lightest element, so cant go any lighter I think.

Originally Posted by sequoias

Yeah, I can see hydrogen technology is sort of new to us. I think the hydrogen powering a electric motor sounds pretty cool and lot less waste than the battery powered ones.

Originally Posted by sequoias

Yeah, I bet. The batteries in that Nissan Leaf is like 600 lbs, and a compact car weighing 3,400 lbs is crazy! I bet that uses lot of energy to move a heavy little car for sure.

Originally Posted by diehardbiker

Funny thing, Hydrogen idea is nothing new. It has been around since 1839! Yes, it is 1839 by a physicist that struggling trying to get it work. It is materials used in fuel cell back then isn't successfully. But now, I have seen few Fuel cells in my area. That is because there is research on this one just 40 miles south (GM Fuel cell research center). I have talked with one of RIT employee, himself is Deaf and he dropped his jaw when he sees fuel cell. I think he told me RIT is not interesting in all Electric cars and CNG too. I could be wrong on this one.

Image this, since Fuel cell can produce electricity, instead of using gas powered generator, plug in fuel cell cars and you get power for whole house while power outrage. Cool!

The problem right now is that Hydrogen does freeze at 32 degrees F. That is why it is available only in southern California at this time.

Originally Posted by diehardbiker

Im not misinformed at all, none of them are feasible yet. The only time it will happen is if we run out of oil which is not going to happen anytime soon. Trust me, I have heard that we are running out of oil since when? Its early 70's and 40 years has passed we still see oil flowing. 40 years is long long long time

Originally Posted by sequoias

best to be prepared than be sorry.