Ethanol increase in gas backed by EPA

**Reba** · 01-23-2011, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Ethanol increase in gas backed: EPA says blend safe for 2001 to 2006 vehicles
BY MARY CLARE JALONICK
Associated Press
Saturday, January 22, 2011

WASHINGTON -- Nearly two-thirds of cars on the road could have more corn-based ethanol in their fuel tanks under an Environmental Protection Agency decision Friday.

The agency said that 15 percent ethanol blended with gasoline is safe for cars and light-duty trucks manufactured between 2001 and 2006, expanding an October decision that the higher blend is safe for cars built since 2007. The maximum gasoline blend has been 10 percent ethanol.

The fuel is popular in farm country because most ethanol comes from corn and other grains. It faces strong opposition, however, from the auto industry, environmentalists, cattle ranchers, food companies and others.

Those groups say that using corn to make ethanol makes animal feed more expensive, raises prices at the grocery store and tears up the land. Several lawsuits already have been filed against the EPA -- including one filed by automakers, boat manufacturers and outdoor power equipment manufacturers -- since the agency decided to allow the higher blends for newer cars in October.

Critics said the change could be frustrating for drivers of older cars who will have to figure out which service station pump to use. And they argue that many retailers will opt not to sell the higher blend because of the expense of adding new pumps and signs.

"It seems like corn growers and the ethanol industry are the only real winners here," said Craig Cox of the Environmental Working Group, an advocacy group that opposes use of the fuel.

The Obama administration has remained supportive of the renewable fuel, and the EPA has said a congressional mandate for increased ethanol use can't be achieved without allowing higher-percentage blends. Congress, driven by a broad coalition of members from farm states, has required refiners to blend 36 billion gallons of biofuels, mostly ethanol, into auto fuel by 2022.

Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack said after the decision that expanding the use of ethanol in gasoline "gives consumers the option of purchasing domestically produced renewable transportation fuels" and supporting American farmers and ranchers.

Members of the ethanol industry say that use of the fuel can help reduce the country's dependence on foreign oil while boosting a domestic industry and creating jobs. The industry group Growth Energy petitioned the EPA to raise the blend in March 2009. Tom Buis, president of the group, said Friday there are still steps to go to get more ethanol on the market but he is optimistic.

"Ultimately we will get this marketplace open because it's a win for America, a win for consumers and a win for our economy," he said.

The ethanol industry estimates that almost 6 out of 10 cars on the road would be able to use ethanol under the new standards. EPA estimates that almost 190 million cars on the road could use the 15 percent ethanol by 2014.

The EPA has said there won't be a decision any time soon on boosting the ethanol concentration for cars and light trucks manufactured before 2001 -- or for motorcycles, heavy-duty vehicles or non-road engines -- because there is not sufficient testing to support such an approval.

The EPA has delayed decisions on using 15 percent ethanol several times as the agency and the Energy Department have tested the ethanol-blended gasoline to make sure it is safe. The agency has approved the blend only for newer cars and trucks because they have more durable emissions systems.

Ethanol burns hotter than gasoline, causing catalytic converters, which help clean engine emissions, to break down faster.

Automakers continued to criticize the EPA on the decision Friday.

"Any new fuel's success depends on how it's accepted by consumers, and automakers still have concerns on behalf of our customers," said a statement from the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, which represents General Motors, Toyota, Ford, Chrysler and other automakers.

Ethanol increase in gas backed: EPA says blend safe for 2001 to 2006 vehicles | The Post and Courier, Charleston SC - News, Sports, Entertainment

This stinks.

**sequoias** · 01-23-2011, 08:23 PM

Wirelessly posted (Samsung Captivate (i897))

Well, I noticed here in Iowa....89 octane with 10% ethanol blend is cheaper than 87 and 92 octane at most gas stations. Ive been using 89 octane with 10% blend, no problems since.

Since ethanol burns hotter than gasoline, I noticed it warms up alittle quicker in very cold winters. It even starts fine at -20°F (-28.8°C).

tigersharkdude · 01-23-2011, 08:28 PM

Im pretty sure it wont pass. There are too many cars on the road that are pre 2000 and it is horrible on their engines. I know first hand that my 1999 maxima hates ethanol blend. It runs like trash on E10, I couldnt imagine it on E15

tigersharkdude · 01-23-2011, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sequoias

Wirelessly posted (Samsung Captivate (i897))

Well, I noticed here in Iowa....89 octane with 10% ethanol blend is cheaper than 87 and 92 octane at most gas stations. Ive been using 89 octane with 10% blend, no problems since.

Since ethanol burns hotter than gasoline, I noticed it warms up alittle quicker in very cold winters. It even starts fine at -20°F (-28.8°C).

With Ethanol burning as hot as it does it puts horrible ware and tare on our engines, its proven. Here in TN you cant find a pump that does not say gas contains 10% ethanol. And the gas that says non-ethanol is from those shady gas stations that you would never pull in

**sequoias** · 01-23-2011, 08:35 PM

Wirelessly posted (Samsung Captivate (i897))

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigersharkdude

Quote:

Originally Posted by sequoias

Wirelessly posted (Samsung Captivate (i897))

Well, I noticed here in Iowa....89 octane with 10% ethanol blend is cheaper than 87 and 92 octane at most gas stations. Ive been using 89 octane with 10% blend, no problems since.

Since ethanol burns hotter than gasoline, I noticed it warms up alittle quicker in very cold winters. It even starts fine at -20°F (-28.8°C).

With Ethanol burning as hot as it does it puts horrible ware and tare on our engines, its proven. Here in TN you cant find a pump that does not say gas contains 10% ethanol. And the gas that says non-ethanol is from those shady gas stations that you would never pull in

Its only 10% blend. Ive been using that since I bought my car in 2006 WA state has most stationa uaing 10% blend in all octane ratings. I got it with 39k miles on it and now it has 116k miles. Still purrs like a kitten.

tigersharkdude · 01-23-2011, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sequoias

Wirelessly posted (Samsung Captivate (i897))

Its only 10% blend. Ive been using that since I bought my car in 2006 WA state has most stationa uaing 10% blend in all octane ratings. I got it with 39k miles on it and now it has 116k miles. Still purrs like a kitten.

What kind of car? What year?

**sequoias** · 01-23-2011, 08:39 PM

Wirelessly posted (Samsung Captivate (i897))

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigersharkdude

Quote:

Originally Posted by sequoias

Wirelessly posted (Samsung Captivate (i897))

Its only 10% blend. Ive been using that since I bought my car in 2006 WA state has most stationa uaing 10% blend in all octane ratings. I got it with 39k miles on it and now it has 116k miles. Still purrs like a kitten.

What kind of car? What year?

2000 Honda Civic. Its orginally from WA state from a dealer brand new. The article said 15% blend is designed for 2001 and up.

tigersharkdude · 01-23-2011, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sequoias

Wirelessly posted (Samsung Captivate (i897))

2000 Honda Civic. Its orginally from WA state from a dealer brand new. The article said 15% blend is designed for 2001 and up.

low performance 4 cylinder that is newer is unlikely to be affected horribly as it is running low compression. Try running E10 in a 1995 Corvette ZR1, I bet it would run like crap.

Just another move by our government to control the auto industry. High performance engines dont like ethanol....period
The government is trying to get a fleet average of like 35mpg, another move to kill performance cars.

I bet the auto. parts industry loves this, because with the increase will come more ware and tare, thus they will sell more parts.

And many companies have slowed/stopped production on parts for older cars, so many people kind find the parts in junkyards. But with the cash for clunkers thing a while back, many older cars were destroyed, so its even harder to find parts.

It just seems like another move to try to make us buy newer cars AKA put money into the auto industry.

**Reba** · 01-23-2011, 09:04 PM

I can't afford a newer car, so my '95 Jeep has to last me.

Too much ethanol is also bad for motorcycle and boat engines, and small engines such as in lawn care equipment.

tigersharkdude · 01-23-2011, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reba

I can't afford a newer car, so my '95 Jeep has to last me.

Too much ethanol is also bad for motorcycle and boat engines, and small engines such as in lawn care equipment.

Ethanol is bad for anything...period

I was just saying its worse on high performance engines (FWIW motorcycle, boat, small engines have high RPM's or high performing)

**Reba** · 01-23-2011, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigersharkdude

Ethanol is bad for anything...period

I was just saying its worse on high performance engines (FWIW motorcycle, boat, small engines have high RPM's or high performing)

Yes, you're right.

**sequoias** · 01-23-2011, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigersharkdude

low performance 4 cylinder that is newer is unlikely to be affected horribly as it is running low compression. Try running E10 in a 1995 Corvette ZR1, I bet it would run like crap.

Just another move by our government to control the auto industry. High performance engines dont like ethanol....period
The government is trying to get a fleet average of like 35mpg, another move to kill performance cars.

I bet the auto. parts industry loves this, because with the increase will come more ware and tare, thus they will sell more parts.

And many companies have slowed/stopped production on parts for older cars, so many people kind find the parts in junkyards. But with the cash for clunkers thing a while back, many older cars were destroyed, so its even harder to find parts.

It just seems like another move to try to make us buy newer cars AKA put money into the auto industry.

My car has compression ratio of 9:3:1 or something...I forgot the exact ratio and it's sohc vtec 1.6 liter....it's an EX level trim...but not the Honda Civic Si which has a performance engine. If they approved to use 10% ethanol in most gas stations in Washington state...why are cars still running fine in general? It's sort of like putting 10% biodiesel in fossil diesel in any diesel powered car. 10% blend doesn't really affect anything much at all.

Yeah, I agree it's stupid to buy newer cars which many people can't afford that at all. I don't want a newer car. I'm tired of payments eating up my money.

tigersharkdude · 01-23-2011, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sequoias

It's sort of like putting 10% biodiesel in fossil diesel in any diesel powered car. 10% blend doesn't really affect anything much at all.

For one, diesels will run on pretty much anything, its just the way diesels are designed. FTR E10 is very harsh on engines. Its hard to notice, as most people dont really care, but E10 is harmful. Im not going to go into super detail (can if needed). The easiest way to explain it is....Ethanol runs hotter than fossil fuel. Our cars are designed to run at the heat range for fossil fuel not ethanol. With E10 engine temps increase and can cause mechanical damage and failure from over heating.

Older engines can be outfitted to run on E10, but most people would rather have a new car than dump a bunch of money in old car.

**Reba** · 01-23-2011, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigersharkdude

...Older engines can be outfitted to run on E10, but most people would rather have a new car than dump a bunch of money in old car.

The book value on my car is about $800, so I don't want to spend a lot of money on it. However, I definitely can't start making payments on a new vehicle either.

Like I said, it stinks.

**sequoias** · 01-23-2011, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigersharkdude

For one, diesels will run on pretty much anything, its just the way diesels are designed. FTR E10 is very harsh on engines. Its hard to notice, as most people dont really care, but E10 is harmful. Im not going to go into super detail (can if needed). The easiest way to explain it is....Ethanol runs hotter than fossil fuel. Our cars are designed to run at the heat range for fossil fuel not ethanol. With E10 engine temps increase and can cause mechanical damage and failure from over heating.

Older engines can be outfitted to run on E10, but most people would rather have a new car than dump a bunch of money in old car.

Yeah....I know what you're talking about. Heat is an enemy for sure. Let's see if my car can last to 200k miles, LOL.

tigersharkdude · 01-23-2011, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sequoias

Yeah....I know what you're talking about. Heat is an enemy for sure. Let's see if my car can last to 200k miles, LOL.

honda's run forever if you take care of them. Keep changing the oil ever 3-4k, watch for any check engine lights, etc, etc....and you should be good to 300k+

most civics are totaled before the engine dies

**sequoias** · 01-23-2011, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigersharkdude

honda's run forever if you take care of them. Keep changing the oil ever 3-4k, watch for any check engine lights, etc, etc....and you should be good to 300k+

most civics are totaled before the engine dies

Yeah, I take good care of it. I do many of the maitience on my own because it's easier on the wallet. I do change oil every 5000 miles or so. Check engine lights haven't gone on since spring last year, though. I doubt my car will outlast its life....it probably will get wrecked bad enough...but I don't want to know that.....

deafsmogtech · 01-23-2011, 11:45 PM

yeah, it stinks. I first got email from SEMA Action Network (SAN), talks about the E15 which they (SAN) opposes EPA expansion of E15 Waiver to MY 2001 and Newer cars.

Trust story? Try SEMA Action Network, find "Federal Issues", select RED HOT ISSUES to find "EPA". Join SAN. Happy motorists.

**Banjo** · 01-23-2011, 11:58 PM

Enough with the corn. We are paying more for corn than ever because of this. The mind-blowing part is, the corn is already subsidized to start with. Imagine the prices if they weren't!

deafsmogtech · 01-24-2011, 12:05 AM

If the E15 blended in gasoline , sale in Calif, then the vehicles would suffer high NOx (nitrogen oxides, when the temperature in combustion chamber, reach over 2,500 degree F). Not me , up to CARB (California Air Resource Board) to decide if they like them or not?

deafsmogtech · 01-24-2011, 12:11 AM

Sequoias, I think your Civic's CR is 9.4:1. Mine is 9.9:1 CR, D17A2 (I double check the engine code),VETC, rates 127 hp @ 6300 rpm and 114 TQ @ 4800 rpm.

deafsmogtech · 01-24-2011, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigersharkdude

Ethanol is bad for anything...period

I was just saying its worse on high performance engines (FWIW motorcycle, boat, small engines have high RPM's or high performing)

Maybe they sell E10 blended in gasoline to the stations and didn't label "E10" sticks on the pumps. Who know?

Glenn · 01-24-2011, 02:15 AM

It's a bad idea to compete food supplies with energy supplies because it drives up the prices. More demand = higher prices.

**Reba** · 01-24-2011, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glenn

It's a bad idea to compete food supplies with energy supplies because it drives up the prices. More demand = higher prices.

Yep.

**sequoias** · 01-24-2011, 08:23 AM

Wirelessly posted (Samsung Captivate (i897))

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafsmogtech

Sequoias, I think your Civic's CR is 9.4:1. Mine is 9.9:1 CR, D17A2 (I double check the engine code),VETC, rates 127 hp @ 6300 rpm and 114 TQ @ 4800 rpm.

Mines d16y8. 127 hp at 6600 rpm and 106 ft lbs at 5000 rpm.

radioman · 01-24-2011, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banjo

Enough with the corn. We are paying more for corn than ever because of this. The mind-blowing part is, the corn is already subsidized to start with. Imagine the prices if they weren't!

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafsmogtech

Maybe they sell E10 blended in gasoline to the stations and didn't label "E10" sticks on the pumps. Who know?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glenn

It's a bad idea to compete food supplies with energy supplies because it drives up the prices. More demand = higher prices.

Sorry guys- I disagree. If you dont show the high demand for corn, prices for corn will rise. We need to put old dairy farms that quit due to high costs of supplying milk back into production. Once the demand goes high, supply goes high, prices really comes down big time. I dont think we have a shortage of corn to eat. they are NOT the same type of corn. there is sweet corn for eating and feild corn for cows and ethanol.

The local stores around here called wegmans is supporting the local small farmers for produce so if more stores go with local farmers support, more big farms grow corn, we can literally support ourselves to reduce the reliance from importing . look at aldi's- imported cheap food grown in bad soil with lead and such since thier tractors still run on lead. we don't.

its time to take back america before the chinese do.

**Banjo** · 01-24-2011, 08:38 AM

Disagree? It's a fact, the corn industry is heavily subsidized.

**sequoias** · 01-24-2011, 08:42 AM

Wirelessly posted (Samsung Captivate (i897))

Come and visit Iowa and study their corn industry.

**Banjo** · 01-24-2011, 08:54 AM

... and there's a lot of paranoia surrounding China. What is this? Another Red Scare? Hee.

**Jiro** · 01-24-2011, 09:31 AM

crap. I avoid it like a plague. There are a few gas stations around here that don't use ethanol. It's bad for engine. I filled up my bike w/ fuel stabilizer too cuz of ethanol's negative effect on my engine.

01-23-2011, 08:23 PM	#2 (permalink)
sequoias Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Iowa, the land of the cornfields and pigs Posts: 21,866	Wirelessly posted (Samsung Captivate (i897)) Well, I noticed here in Iowa....89 octane with 10% ethanol blend is cheaper than 87 and 92 octane at most gas stations. Ive been using 89 octane with 10% blend, no problems since. Since ethanol burns hotter than gasoline, I noticed it warms up alittle quicker in very cold winters. It even starts fine at -20°F (-28.8°C). Last edited by sequoias; 01-23-2011 at 08:26 PM.

01-23-2011, 08:28 PM	#3 (permalink)
tigersharkdude Registered User Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 463	Im pretty sure it wont pass. There are too many cars on the road that are pre 2000 and it is horrible on their engines. I know first hand that my 1999 maxima hates ethanol blend. It runs like trash on E10, I couldnt imagine it on E15 __________________

01-24-2011, 09:31 AM	#30 (permalink)
Jiro Aparecium Deletrius Legil Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: The Soprano State Posts: 60,540	crap. I avoid it like a plague. There are a few gas stations around here that don't use ethanol. It's bad for engine. I filled up my bike w/ fuel stabilizer too cuz of ethanol's negative effect on my engine. __________________ - Don't forget to buy Jiro's Special Edition Sunglasses for $19.95

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01-23-2011, 09:04 PM	#9 (permalink)
Reba Granny Terp Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: South Carolina Posts: 39,189	I can't afford a newer car, so my '95 Jeep has to last me. Too much ethanol is also bad for motorcycle and boat engines, and small engines such as in lawn care equipment.

01-23-2011, 11:45 PM	#18 (permalink)
deafsmogtech Registered User Join Date: May 2009 Location: Surf City Posts: 1,592	yeah, it stinks. I first got email from SEMA Action Network (SAN), talks about the E15 which they (SAN) opposes EPA expansion of E15 Waiver to MY 2001 and Newer cars. Trust story? Try SEMA Action Network, find "Federal Issues", select RED HOT ISSUES to find "EPA". Join SAN. Happy motorists.

01-23-2011, 11:58 PM	#19 (permalink)
Banjo Expelled Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 11,650	Enough with the corn. We are paying more for corn than ever because of this. The mind-blowing part is, the corn is already subsidized to start with. Imagine the prices if they weren't!

01-24-2011, 12:05 AM	#20 (permalink)
deafsmogtech Registered User Join Date: May 2009 Location: Surf City Posts: 1,592	If the E15 blended in gasoline , sale in Calif, then the vehicles would suffer high NOx (nitrogen oxides, when the temperature in combustion chamber, reach over 2,500 degree F). Not me , up to CARB (California Air Resource Board) to decide if they like them or not?

01-24-2011, 12:11 AM	#21 (permalink)
deafsmogtech Registered User Join Date: May 2009 Location: Surf City Posts: 1,592	Sequoias, I think your Civic's CR is 9.4:1. Mine is 9.9:1 CR, D17A2 (I double check the engine code),VETC, rates 127 hp @ 6300 rpm and 114 TQ @ 4800 rpm.

01-24-2011, 02:15 AM	#23 (permalink)
Glenn Registered User Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Washington Posts: 2,909	It's a bad idea to compete food supplies with energy supplies because it drives up the prices. More demand = higher prices.

01-24-2011, 08:38 AM	#27 (permalink)
Banjo Expelled Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 11,650	Disagree? It's a fact, the corn industry is heavily subsidized.

01-24-2011, 08:42 AM	#28 (permalink)
sequoias Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Iowa, the land of the cornfields and pigs Posts: 21,866	Wirelessly posted (Samsung Captivate (i897)) Come and visit Iowa and study their corn industry.

01-24-2011, 08:54 AM	#29 (permalink)
Banjo Expelled Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 11,650	... and there's a lot of paranoia surrounding China. What is this? Another Red Scare? Hee.