My RIGHTS to keep my Hearing Dog.... - Page 2

TweetyBird · 02-01-2006, 07:26 PM

i hope everything will be smooth for u!

DreamDeaf · 02-10-2006, 12:24 PM

2. Q: What is a service animal?

A: The ADA defines a service animal as any guide dog, signal dog, or other animal individually trained to provide assistance to an individual with a disability. If they meet this definition, animals are considered service animals under the ADA regardless of whether they have been licensed or certified by a state or local government.

Service animals perform some of the functions and tasks that the individual with a disability cannot perform for him or herself. "Seeing eye dogs" are one type of service animal, used by some individuals who are blind. This is the type of service animal with which most people are familiar. But there are service animals that assist persons with other kinds of disabilities in their day-to-day activities.

http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/qasrvc.htm

***Alex*** · 02-10-2006, 02:36 PM

Some posts were removed from this thread. Watch with the name calling, people.

Thank you.

Nesmuth · 02-11-2006, 03:12 AM

Even though the ADA specifically doesnt contain any language regarding certification for service animals. Many public agencies still ask for it especially HUD when they calculate the 'spend downs' in determining the eligibility for assistance.

And in the case of housing, building and apartment owners and their lawyers have been successful in getting what they want because the animal doesnt have a certificate or any 3rd party acknowledgement the service animal is for real.

In legal situations a certification stands better than your own words that the animal you have is a genuine service animal.

I'm speaking from a lot of experience in the courtrooms.

Richard

Tousi · 02-11-2006, 03:54 AM

Pek, so even if the cert isn't required, her having one is even better, isn't it? In other words, even though the law, as you say, doesn't require the certificate, so what if she does? That's even better that she does have one and to keep insisting that she doesn't need one when she already does is wasting your time and energy emphasizing she doesn't need it. Having one is not a negative.

Dennis · 02-11-2006, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nesmuth

Even though the ADA specifically doesnt contain any language regarding certification for service animals. Many public agencies still ask for it especially HUD when they calculate the 'spend downs' in determining the eligibility for assistance.

And in the case of housing, building and apartment owners and their lawyers have been successful in getting what they want because the animal doesnt have a certificate or any 3rd party acknowledgement the service animal is for real.

In legal situations a certification stands better than your own words that the animal you have is a genuine service animal.

I'm speaking from a lot of experience in the courtrooms.

Richard

What the heck? You can't GET CERTIFICATION. Richard, you of all people with "a lot of experience in the courtroom" should know this. There is no legal certification process for any kind of service animal. There are no state programs that say, "Hey, the state of CA certifies this animal as a deaf guide dog" or "The ADA certifies this dog as a blind guide dog."

Nesmuth · 02-11-2006, 09:49 AM

You can get certification. We have certified dozens of animals. We've certified animal dogs, cats, ferrets, a goat, and even 'Mushu' the pot bellied pig that has made the news years ago. HUD and Immigration have referred people with animals to our agency for certification services and we've been doing this for almost 5 years and we have never had any problems.

Richard

Dennis · 02-11-2006, 12:19 PM

That's like the Universal Life Church ordaining just about anyone to become a minister. I can pay 12 bucks and I can now insist that you call me "Minister Dennis" but it doesn't mean a damn thing. I could also pay $3,500 and get a Ph.D from "Columbia State University" and insist that you call me "Doctor Dennis." It doesn't legally mean a damn thing!

If your organization "certifies" a pet, then it's really a TAX on STUPID or GULLIBLE PEOPLE who PAY YOU to do something that isn't needed!

I've got the proof on my side:

http://www.guidedogsofamerica.org/business.html

Quote:

2. Q: What is a service animal?

A: The ADA defines a service animal as any guide dog, signal dog, or other animal individually trained to provide assistance to an individual with a disability. If they meet this definition, animals are considered service animals under the ADA regardless of whether they have been licensed or certified by a state or local government.

You're not even a government official!

I hope I'm wrong about this, but I bet you go around telling people they need to do it, and you'll do the certification for a special, one time, low down fee of 4 monthly payments of $29.99 and you'll even throw in a free set of ginsu knives. The bottom line is, if you do it without letting people know that they don't need to do it, you're nothing more than a theiving shyster preying on vulnerable clients.

circlerain · 02-11-2006, 12:55 PM

Certification is entirely private. Programs may certify (like canine companions for independence or paws with a cause or SPCA hearing dog program) or an individual trainer may certify. But there's not a law that standardizes any kind of certification. Nothing is to say that a person who trains their own hearing dog cant certify their own dog unless there's a state law that says it has to be a nonprofit organization. Yeah this makes for a lot of problems with untrained dogs or whatever but it is good cuz not everyone can wait to get a hearing dog from a program. But the federal ADA law says that anyone can even train their own hearing dog. My hearing dog isn't certified. Because of that she is protected by federal law but not by my state law.

Dennis · 02-11-2006, 02:04 PM

State law cannot simply trump federal law. The ADA cannot simply be ignored by the state, as the law clearly states that certification is NOT required. That means that a state cannot require certification in any way.

You can certainly have something set up in where the state will certify guide dogs and then recognize that certification from whatever authorized agencies they grant certification to, but the state cannot require you to certify your guide dog.

Again, it's just a way for someone to get money off you that you don't need to spend.

pek1 · 02-11-2006, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nesmuth

You can get certification. We have certified dozens of animals. We've certified animal dogs, cats, ferrets, a goat, and even 'Mushu' the pot bellied pig that has made the news years ago. HUD and Immigration have referred people with animals to our agency for certification services and we've been doing this for almost 5 years and we have never had any problems.

Richard

Richard,

With all due respect, you'd automatically have a problem with me. My hearing dog has been trained by me. She goes where I go. If you or anyone wants to stop me, be my guest, because you're setting yourself up to become a defendent. The police will be enroute and I will enforce the full ADA. I have called the police before to enforce it, will do it again. I've also had people go to the Press to tell them what I've been going through. Two stories about me made it in, one went front page.

As for some self-proclaimed agency "testing" my dog...nope. I am my own trainer, tester and advocate.

I assume, Richard, that you are a hearing person. I am hoh. Hearing people have screwed me since before being diagnosed as hoh...in other words, they dropped the ball and misdiagnosed...and got paid for it. I, now on the other hand, do not and will not, curtsy to them or anyone. It is as if I have to proove that I need hearing aids. Do hearing people have to do this? If not, then why should I have to? Why should coloravalanche have to? Why should she have to "proove" to anyone that she needs a hearing dog. I encourage her to contact the ACLU, if she's still reading.

I will say, however, that each individual state says they require "certification" but the ADA supercedes, as I'm aware of that. ADA is Federal, state is not. Hence, Federal always supercedes state.

It also helps that I am my own advocate and am not afraid to 'strong arm' anyone when necessary. I don't say that to pick a fight, but do say that to tell others that they need to stand up for themselves and not take anything from anyone, so long as they KNOW they are in the right, as far as the law is concerned. I do train ADA on the spot, which they receive for no charge, while others charge to train. One person I'm aware of charges $400/hour, two hour minimum per person.

pek1 · 02-11-2006, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nesmuth

And in the case of housing, building and apartment owners and their lawyers have been successful in getting what they want because the animal doesn't have a certificate or any 3rd party acknowledgement the service animal is for real.

Richard,

This also looks like lawyers that are overriding the state's constitution, as well as the Federal one. Are these quacks still practicing law? They shouldn't be.

I'd have a heyday in the courtroom on this one. After declaring victory, I would petition, on the spot and to the bar association of each attorney's state, their disbarrment.

rjr2006 · 02-11-2006, 08:23 PM

Today, I went to Hartford for the meeting on service dogs. you DO HAVE THE RIGHT UNDER ADA to use service dogs to help you.

pek1 · 02-11-2006, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjr2006

Today, I went to Hartford for the meeting on service dogs. you DO HAVE THE RIGHT UNDER ADA to use service dogs to help you.

Beautiful!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ain't life great with a service dog? Snickers has opened so many doors for me, but the one part I hate is the finger pointing people do, as if we're a circus act. Do you get that or people come up to you asking (actually they're telling you) to pet your dog? How do you deal with them?

rjr2006 · 02-11-2006, 08:40 PM

well, I don't have a service dog and that two people discussed why many people don't get it that their dogs are there to help them. i might consider service dog or monkey because I just know that personal care assistants will not always be with me 24/7

Nesmuth · 02-11-2006, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pek1

Richard,

This also looks like lawyers that are overriding the state's constitution, as well as the Federal one. Are these quacks still practicing law? They shouldn't be.

I tried raising that with the State Bar associations but they only control the lawyers. Not the judges that decide the lawyers can have it their way. State Bar association dont control what the lawyers can say to a judge. And most judges here are elected and theyre good as politicians.

The sad part of the entire advocacy game is that we have people calling us 'self proclaimed agency' when we have professionals with us and we're relied on by the county, the HUD, and INS, and we get funds from the county and the state. And our testing procedures has been developed with the assistance of several dog trainers.

And finally, I'm not hearing.

Richard

Cousin Vinny · 02-11-2006, 08:47 PM

Hello.

If I may, I'd like to clear up a lingering misconception harbored by certain posters about service animals and the ADA. While it is true that the ADA allows provisions for service animals and their qualifications (See USDOJ's take on this subject), this is only good for public accommodations under Title III. (I'm not so sure under Title I & II, but I assume the same provision applies.)

However, this ADA provision does not apply to housing. Rather, the Fair Housing Act would be applicable. Check out Disability Law Resource Project's website covering this topic. Thankfully, nearly all 50 states have passed their own laws governing service animals and access to housing for disabled individuals.

So, a Deaf person, faced with a no-pets policy, does have various Federal and State remedies in dealing with landlords about keeping their service animals in their tenancies.

rjr2006 · 02-11-2006, 08:50 PM

Also the certificates should be shown to people, and if they don't believe it, then bring ADA paper with you all the time.

pek1 · 02-11-2006, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjr2006

Also the certificates should be shown to people, and if they don't believe it, then bring ADA paper with you all the time.

Shoot!! Why didn't I think of that...why not bring my audiogram, my health record, my dental record, my service dog's health record, poop bags, extra batteries, extra leash, another hearing aid or two...damn! When and where is this going to end?

The paper from the ADA website, I presume, is about the service dogs. That can be done.

pek1 · 02-11-2006, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nesmuth

I tried raising that with the State Bar associations but they only control the lawyers. Not the judges that decide the lawyers can have it their way. State Bar association dont control what the lawyers can say to a judge. And most judges here are elected and theyre good as politicians.

The sad part of the entire advocacy game is that we have people calling us 'self proclaimed agency' when we have professionals with us and we're relied on by the county, the HUD, and INS, and we get funds from the county and the state. And our testing procedures has been developed with the assistance of several dog trainers.

And finally, I'm not hearing.

Richard

Richard,

Several things. First, as I've stated before, a "hearie" has no right to tell me or you or even "certify" that you or I are either hoh or deaf. That, is a matter for only the audiogram, which speaks for itself. As for the professionals and dog trainers...I have no idea where people go to school to become a dog trainer, as I have trained my own dog and she is constantly in training. I see more people that act worse in public than my dog ever could, yet we're challenged and they're not. I see cigarette butts and trash all over the place, yet not one poop from a dog. When one person makes a fuss about dog poop, there's millions more human trash (litter) in lbs., that's not picked up, so why don't humans just pick up their own litter and leave the dogs alone? Maybe we need to start "controlling the human population...have your child neutered or spayed" instead, opposite of what Bob Barker from the Price is Right says?

Nesmuth · 02-11-2006, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pek1

First, as I've stated before, a "hearie" has no right to tell me or you or even "certify" that you or I are either hoh or deaf. That, is a matter for only the audiogram, which speaks for itself.

Guess what!

Even the deafs who run CISS.org better known as the Deaflympics coordinators do require audiograms before the deafs can play their games and the judges and their organizations are soo much exposed to CISS audiogram policies thanks to Rafael Pinchas lawsuit as it has done good to shock the judges pretty good and they seem to be following CISS's example with regards to the certification issue.

Richard

pek1 · 02-12-2006, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nesmuth

Guess what!

Even the deafs who run CISS.org better known as the Deaflympics coordinators do require audiograms before the deafs can play their games and the judges and their organizations are soo much exposed to CISS audiogram policies thanks to Rafael Pinchas lawsuit as it has done good to shock the judges pretty good and they seem to be following CISS's example with regards to the certification issue.

Richard

This is precisely the problem that is going on.

Why are people, especially the deaf, insisting on "certification?" It tells the hearing world, "Okay, look, please...have pity on me, I have a hearing loss and I want you to like me and

I'll be nice and do things your way." If this be the case, "Hearies" win, deaf lose. I've been there...letting hearies dictate...now I play hardball and love the rules...let me into the courtroom with the attorneys of my choice and they will be begging for mercy. The documents for the ADA need to stand on their own, exactly as they are stated and written, without some deaf people kissing off our rights, settling for what they want or settling out of court. Damn it, Richard, bring those bastards to their knees begging mercy from the deaf/hoh, it's time we did it!

LuvsInk · 02-12-2006, 05:41 PM

Get a copy of your State's statutes concerning Service Dogs/Assistance Dogs/Hearing Dogs, however they have it listed as well as a copy of the American with disabilities Act and keep them with you. Federal Law supercedes state law. Your civil rights have been violated. It is illegal to harrass a service dog user. Your dog does not have to be "certified" even if your state statutes says so. Again ADA trumps state statute. Here in Florida we have spent 3 years lobbying at the State Capitol until we were able to have the state statute changed to reflect the ADA. Some of the wording still doesn't match but we are getting there. We finally got some civic service announcements put on television regarding access issues. Good luck and keep fighting the good fight.

PS: For those in Florida the Statute is 413.08. Helps when it reflects ADA because most police departments are totally lost when it comes to federal law.

Heath · 02-12-2006, 05:48 PM

Here is a place where you can buy an orange vest to end all agruements and have a copy of the ADA law and necessary paperwork. I finally found a place where you can buy an orange vest and a patch to put on the orange vest.

http://www.servicedogequipment.com/equipment2.htm

pek1 · 02-12-2006, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuvsInk

Get a copy of your State's statutes concerning Service Dogs/Assistance Dogs/Hearing Dogs, however they have it listed as well as a copy of the American with disabilities Act and keep them with you. Federal Law supercedes state law. Your civil rights have been violated. It is illegal to harrass a service dog user. Your dog does not have to be "certified" even if your state statutes says so. Again ADA trumps state statute. Here in Florida we have spent 3 years lobbying at the State Capitol until we were able to have the state statute changed to reflect the ADA. Some of the wording still doesn't match but we are getting there. We finally got some civic service announcements put on television regarding access issues. Good luck and keep fighting the good fight.

PS: For those in Florida the Statute is 413.08. Helps when it reflects ADA because most police departments are totally lost when it comes to federal law.

And, may I add...God help the person who assaults a service dog.

02-10-2006, 02:36 PM	#33 (permalink)
*Alex* Administrator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: New Jersey Posts: 3,068 Blog Entries: 1	Some posts were removed from this thread. Watch with the name calling, people. Thank you. __________________ "Kindness is a language which the deaf can hear and the blind can read." - Mark Twain

02-12-2006, 05:41 PM	#53 (permalink)
LuvsInk LuvsInk Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 75	Whats in a name Get a copy of your State's statutes concerning Service Dogs/Assistance Dogs/Hearing Dogs, however they have it listed as well as a copy of the American with disabilities Act and keep them with you. Federal Law supercedes state law. Your civil rights have been violated. It is illegal to harrass a service dog user. Your dog does not have to be "certified" even if your state statutes says so. Again ADA trumps state statute. Here in Florida we have spent 3 years lobbying at the State Capitol until we were able to have the state statute changed to reflect the ADA. Some of the wording still doesn't match but we are getting there. We finally got some civic service announcements put on television regarding access issues. Good luck and keep fighting the good fight. PS: For those in Florida the Statute is 413.08. Helps when it reflects ADA because most police departments are totally lost when it comes to federal law.

02-01-2006, 07:26 PM	#31 (permalink)
TweetyBird Live, Laugh & Love Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: AlAbAmA Posts: 20,570	i hope everything will be smooth for u!

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02-10-2006, 12:24 PM	#32 (permalink)
DreamDeaf Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 4,562	2. Q: What is a service animal? A: The ADA defines a service animal as any guide dog, signal dog, or other animal individually trained to provide assistance to an individual with a disability. If they meet this definition, animals are considered service animals under the ADA regardless of whether they have been licensed or certified by a state or local government. Service animals perform some of the functions and tasks that the individual with a disability cannot perform for him or herself. "Seeing eye dogs" are one type of service animal, used by some individuals who are blind. This is the type of service animal with which most people are familiar. But there are service animals that assist persons with other kinds of disabilities in their day-to-day activities. http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/qasrvc.htm

02-11-2006, 03:12 AM	#34 (permalink)
Nesmuth Banned Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: The Southland of California Posts: 3,199	Even though the ADA specifically doesnt contain any language regarding certification for service animals. Many public agencies still ask for it especially HUD when they calculate the 'spend downs' in determining the eligibility for assistance. And in the case of housing, building and apartment owners and their lawyers have been successful in getting what they want because the animal doesnt have a certificate or any 3rd party acknowledgement the service animal is for real. In legal situations a certification stands better than your own words that the animal you have is a genuine service animal. I'm speaking from a lot of experience in the courtrooms. Richard

02-11-2006, 03:54 AM	#35 (permalink)
Tousi Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 6,361	Pek, so even if the cert isn't required, her having one is even better, isn't it? In other words, even though the law, as you say, doesn't require the certificate, so what if she does? That's even better that she does have one and to keep insisting that she doesn't need one when she already does is wasting your time and energy emphasizing she doesn't need it. Having one is not a negative.

02-11-2006, 09:49 AM	#37 (permalink)
Nesmuth Banned Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: The Southland of California Posts: 3,199	You can get certification. We have certified dozens of animals. We've certified animal dogs, cats, ferrets, a goat, and even 'Mushu' the pot bellied pig that has made the news years ago. HUD and Immigration have referred people with animals to our agency for certification services and we've been doing this for almost 5 years and we have never had any problems. Richard

02-11-2006, 12:55 PM	#39 (permalink)
circlerain Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 19	Certification is entirely private. Programs may certify (like canine companions for independence or paws with a cause or SPCA hearing dog program) or an individual trainer may certify. But there's not a law that standardizes any kind of certification. Nothing is to say that a person who trains their own hearing dog cant certify their own dog unless there's a state law that says it has to be a nonprofit organization. Yeah this makes for a lot of problems with untrained dogs or whatever but it is good cuz not everyone can wait to get a hearing dog from a program. But the federal ADA law says that anyone can even train their own hearing dog. My hearing dog isn't certified. Because of that she is protected by federal law but not by my state law.

02-11-2006, 02:04 PM	#40 (permalink)
Dennis \/ It's a computer patch. Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Death Star HQ Posts: 1,730	State law cannot simply trump federal law. The ADA cannot simply be ignored by the state, as the law clearly states that certification is NOT required. That means that a state cannot require certification in any way. You can certainly have something set up in where the state will certify guide dogs and then recognize that certification from whatever authorized agencies they grant certification to, but the state cannot require you to certify your guide dog. Again, it's just a way for someone to get money off you that you don't need to spend.

02-11-2006, 08:23 PM	#43 (permalink)
rjr2006 RJR2K6 Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Soon moving to Rochy Posts: 1,820	Today, I went to Hartford for the meeting on service dogs. you DO HAVE THE RIGHT UNDER ADA to use service dogs to help you.

02-11-2006, 08:40 PM	#45 (permalink)
rjr2006 RJR2K6 Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Soon moving to Rochy Posts: 1,820	well, I don't have a service dog and that two people discussed why many people don't get it that their dogs are there to help them. i might consider service dog or monkey because I just know that personal care assistants will not always be with me 24/7

02-11-2006, 08:47 PM	#47 (permalink)
Cousin Vinny Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 673	Hello. If I may, I'd like to clear up a lingering misconception harbored by certain posters about service animals and the ADA. While it is true that the ADA allows provisions for service animals and their qualifications (See USDOJ's take on this subject), this is only good for public accommodations under Title III. (I'm not so sure under Title I & II, but I assume the same provision applies.) However, this ADA provision does not apply to housing. Rather, the Fair Housing Act would be applicable. Check out Disability Law Resource Project's website covering this topic. Thankfully, nearly all 50 states have passed their own laws governing service animals and access to housing for disabled individuals. So, a Deaf person, faced with a no-pets policy, does have various Federal and State remedies in dealing with landlords about keeping their service animals in their tenancies.

02-11-2006, 08:50 PM	#48 (permalink)
rjr2006 RJR2K6 Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Soon moving to Rochy Posts: 1,820	Also the certificates should be shown to people, and if they don't believe it, then bring ADA paper with you all the time.

02-12-2006, 05:48 PM	#54 (permalink)
Heath Banned Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 7,959	Here is a place where you can buy an orange vest to end all agruements and have a copy of the ADA law and necessary paperwork. I finally found a place where you can buy an orange vest and a patch to put on the orange vest. http://www.servicedogequipment.com/equipment2.htm